On this episode of Unpacked, host Aislyn Greene gets expert summer travel advice from Mark Ellwood, an Afar contributor who has lived out of a suitcase most of his life. They chat about unexpected (and crowd-free) places and have unique adventures and overall travel tips for 2025—from cheap flights to how to navigate challenges due to weather and political perceptions.
Transcript
Aislyn: Yeah, you froze, right? Actually, I think it is a conspiracy. They knew that you were talking about it, and they froze everything.
Mark Ellwood: Midwest Illuminati.
Aislyn: I’m Aislyn Greene, and this week on Unpacked, we’re talking about summer travel, including the beach destinations that maybe Midwesterners don’t want us to know about. We will reveal all shortly. Joining me is Afar correspondent Mark Ellwood.
Mark has lived out of a suitcase for most of his life. And every month, he channels his vast knowledge of the world into stories about where we should all travel next.
On afar.com, we’ve just released his recommendations for where to travel this summer. That link is in the show notes.
And in this companion episode, Mark weaves a little summer magic.
Mark, welcome back to Unpacked. It’s so lovely to see you again.
Mark: Thank you so much. I can’t wait to talk about the summer.
Aislyn: I know, I know. It’s odd to be talking about the summer right now because it feels quite cold where I am.
Mark: I think that the point is, that’s when you should be talking about the summer. If it’s cold outside, why not fixate on when it’s warm? It’s the best medicine.
Aislyn: Very wise, very wise. Well, you are our go-to “where to go” reporter. You’re always traveling around the world, sending your missives about where to go next. Can you share where you’ve been recently?
Mark: So I went down to Miami Beach for a wedding, and I hadn’t been to Miami since the pandemic. And it was fascinating to see the raft of new hotels. I’ve been a Miami Beach regular for 20-odd years. and it’s never felt more different.
The construction underway, the Raleigh is going to be a completely different hotel. I am fascinated at what Miami Beach will look like in maybe a couple of years and how different it will be.
Aislyn: Wow. Why do you think it’s changed and how will it be different going forward?
Mark: I think the center of gravity in Miami Beach continues to move northwards.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: When it was reborn in the ’90s, everyone wanted to be on Eighth and Ocean.
Aislyn: OK.
Mark: Now being on Eight and Ocean is not necessarily desirable. The traffic’s bad. There’s a lot of gawkers there to take quick pictures. If you want a gorgeous Miami Beach experience, you’re going to head up to the ’30s, the ’40s, midbeach, with bigger hotels that have bigger rooms, with nicer pools, and the experience is upgraded.
It’s pricier than it used to be.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: But you are getting a better experience.
Aislyn: OK. Interesting. Well, where else have you been?
[Laughter].
Mark: I am planning.
Aislyn: You went to the heat.
Mark: I went to the heat, I’ve got trips, a couple of trips, to Paris coming up.
Aislyn: Oh, nice.
Mark: And I think Paris is one of those places that is both a summer and a winter destination, you get very different things out of it. In summer, in August, Paris is a very cheap place to go, the Parisians leave, it’s usually the lowest rates for hotels, but I love being in a city like Paris when it’s cold, a little dreary, and you feel you’re in your own little romantic movie rather than the summer.
Aislyn: Yes, I can see that.
Mark: You know what I mean?
Aislyn: Absolutely. Yeah, you’re drinking your, you know, I don’t know, pastis? What are you drinking to stay warm?
Mark: I mean, maybe you drink one pastis and then you think, “No, no.”
Aislyn: No, no. It sounds romantic, but in reality, not so much. All right. Well, we are talking about summer despite talking about winter. The last couple of summers have been a little rough on the travel side, there’s so much demand, so many people are out there. So what do you anticipate for summer 2025?
Do you think it’s going to be better? Is it going to be worse?
Mark: Do you want me to tell you the truth or do you want me to tell you what you want to hear?
Aislyn: Yes. We want the truth—with a dash of what we want to hear.
Mark: Well, look, there’s good news and bad news. And I think this is all about planning strategically.
Aislyn: OK.
Mark: Domestic airfare for 2025—you’re not going to see much price break. So, in other words, I think we’ve all noticed that domestic airfares have really, really ticked up since the pandemic, and we’re not seeing much softening there, mostly because schedules are still not quite where they were. So, capacity and demand are not quite equalized.
But there’s good news: If you want to go overseas, you’ll see that international flight prices are not ticking up the way the U.S. has, and I would also encourage people, whenever you’re planning a trip, think about currency and think about the whole cost of your trip.
The dollar, at the moment, is firing on all cylinders against a lot of major currencies. So even if your long-haul international flight is a bit more than you plan to spend, think about how much your accommodation in euros will cost versus your really nice accommodation in dollars. And you might find the big picture pushes you further afield.
Aislyn: Yeah, it is easy, I think, to just get caught up in the flight prices alone, but it’s a good reminder to think about everything. I mean, hotels are one of the biggest costs, or lodging is one of the biggest costs of our trips, right? But I think it is easy to lose sight of that because flights are usually the first thing we book.
Mark: So, I just encourage people to think about, you know, going to Japan, for example. A flight to Japan is never going to be cheap, but your experience in Japan, at the moment, is very good value because the yen is so weak. So, if you’ve always wanted to go to Japan—one warning though, Tokyo in July is a rainforest.
Never go to Tokyo in July, a bit like June gloom in Los Angeles. You get to Tokyo in July and all the locals go, “Well, obviously, it rains all month.”
Aislyn: Yes, why are you here?
Mark: Why are you here? And, unless you live in Tokyo, you don’t know that.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: So, no Tokyo in July.
Aislyn: North? You would go north in Japan?
Mark: You could go north. Or I would go tropical. I’d go to Okinawa. I would think, gosh, I’m gonna go to . . .
Aislyn: Lean into it.
Mark: Yes, yes.
Aislyn: OK. Well, I think it’s important. Most people, when they’re thinking about summer, the destination is front of mind. So, you’re currently reporting your “where to go summer” story.
What’s at the top of your list right now?
Mark: So domestically, I think, it’s very exciting to think about Washington D.C. , which is getting World Pride, which is a wonderful, joyous, absurdly over-the-top LGBTQ+ celebration, which really does bring in people from all over the world. And I love the idea that it’s in our nation’s capital.
It’ll be in June, so it’ll be, it’ll be warm. Pack, pack very, you know, lightweight clothing. But I think that’s a joyous, joyous event, and we’re very lucky that we’ve got it this . . .
Aislyn: And this year, of all years, is an interesting year to have it, so, hmm.
Mark: Indeed, I think it’s a great time to celebrate inclusiveness in a happy way.
I would also send you—there is a rule, I have a rule in travel. People often think that when there’s been a problem in a destination, you should steer clear. It’s almost that uncomfortable thing when a friend gets divorced and you think: Should I mention it? Should I not mention it? I just want to do the right thing, argh, I won’t mention it. In travel, very much when somewhere has struggled, our default is often to say, “Gosh, I’m not going to be a burden to you.” But don’t forget that money is the thing that a place that’s had a tragedy, had a natural disaster, that money helps it rebound.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah.
Mark: If you want to support somewhere, go to Los Angeles and think,“I’m going to be a little more flexible. I’m going to recognize that in the wake of this disaster, maybe I won’t be able to do everything I want to, maybe things won’t run as smoothly.”
That’s the contribution you can make. But gosh, please go to L.A. Please go to L.A. It’s a great time to go.
Aislyn: And there’s so much of the city that is OK, right? So yes, don’t write it off. That’s, that’s a great tip.
Mark: Do you know where else I want to send you?
I want to send you to, to me, it’s one of the little secret perfect pieces of Americana that only the Midwest, the Midwesterners really want to keep it for themselves.
Aislyn: Uh oh.
Mark: Right?
One of my favorite secret places is Mackinac Island, which is Michigan’s perfect, tiny, gorgeous piece of summer deliciousness.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: No cars, a grand hotel that’s been open for decades. A chance to sort of step back in time in all the best ways.
Aislyn: Wow.
Mark: And I’m going to say that if you haven’t been to Mackinac Island ever, this summer is the time to say, “Gosh.” As long as you say to someone from the Midwest you know, say, “Can I come? Or do you want to keep it as a secret to yourself?” And then book a little trip.
Aislyn: One of my good friends got married, because her husband’s family is from Michigan, got married, I think in Torch Lake. And when I arrived, I was like, why is nobody talking about Michigan? This is amazing.
Mark: I used to live in Chicago and I think it’s very easy for much of the rest of the country to forget the water. The great lakes of the Great Lakes impact life so much and in many ways really well, that there are these beach towns on the lakes that are as gorgeous as anywhere in Maine or Oregon—they’re just not on the coast.
Aislyn: Yes. Exactly. But it feels like you are. So, yeah. I was blown away. All right. What else do you have for us?
Mark: I’m gonna send you, I’m, I’m a New Yorker, so I’m biased, right?
Aislyn: OK. Yeah.
Mark: But I have this big theory. I have this big theory, right? If Manhattan and New York City’s boroughs were not in New York State, the rest of New York State would be world famous.
Aislyn: Interesting.
Mark: But it gets eclipsed by the celebrity of New York City. And I think that as you drive up along the Hudson River and you see these vast forests, this incredible landscape, and in particular as you go further north and the mountains and the craggy outcrops, it is as spectacular as Big Sky [resort], Wyoming, you name it.
It just happens to be two or three hours’ drive from New York City.
Aislyn: Yeah, that’s an interesting challenge because as someone coming from the West Coast, when I’m going to New York, I’m usually thinking I’m going to New York City, not necessarily going farther afield.
Mark: Yeah, I would send you the national parks up there, the Adirondacks Park is bigger than many, than Yellowstone, all of these other places, and it’s perceived as a winter destination, of course, because great skiing. One of the rules of thumb, and one of my new rules of thumb about summer travel is, if you’re not sure where to go in the summer, go where people go in the winter, because it’s probably amazing, and a little undertouristed.
Aislyn: And a lot of New Yorkers go to the Adirondacks in the summer, right? Is that a thing? Yeah. Yeah.
Mark: And it, you know, it has this gorgeous history. Wealthy Golden Age families had summer camps up there. They built magnificent mansions. So, there’s incredible architecture, towns like Saratoga Springs. One of my favorite bookstores in the world is in Saratoga Springs. And you wander around downtown, these gorgeous old buildings, independent coffee shops, great boutiques.
And it’s about three hours. Three and a half, four maybe from New York City.
Aislyn: Mark, what about summer travels outside of North America?
Mark: In terms of, in terms of overseas, my big emphasis is on the north of Europe. Because in the summer, the weather is very unpredictable and often unpredictably hot. We have seen price rises in Italy in particular, which are unsustainable, and I think often make people enjoy a vacation less because the value is less good. But if you go to Scotland in the summer, you go to Copenhagen or to Bornholm, which is a little island off the coast of Germany that’s Danish.
Bornholm is a rocky Island, and the sun beats down onto that rock and makes it warm. And in the summer, there are spectacular farm-to-table restaurants and art colonies, because the clay on Bornholm is so good that Danish ceramicists move there to work.
Aislyn: Wow, how cool.
Mark: And you can visit their workshops, pick up hand-thrown pots. And again, it’s warm, but it’s very unlikely to be so hot you can’t enjoy yourself.
Aislyn: I love that. What about Scotland?
Mark: Can I be, can I be subjective and incredibly biased?
Aislyn: We would, we would love that.
Mark: My family is from the Outer Hebrides. My mother’s family is from the Outer Hebrides. And it is a part of Scotland that most people forget is there, because it’s not accessible by bridge. And the water that you need to sail across is stomach churningly rough. But you can fly there, to Stornoway, and you will be in a west coast environment that is underneath the Gulf Stream. So, although it’s quite far north, it’s reasonably warm. It’s very windy, but reasonably warm. And the surfing is phenomenal.
Aislyn: Oh, how cool. Yeah.
Mark: So you can surf in the Atlantic Ocean.
Aislyn: Amazing.
Mark: You can go and see Harris tweed weavers working on looms at home, and buy tweed from them. You knock on the door and they’ll have bales of wool and tweed that they’ve, they’ve woven on there.
And you can literally buy it from them. And you have this gorgeous experience of a culture where most people’s first language isn’t English, it’s Scots Gaelic. They will all speak English, but you’re in another world.
Aislyn: Did you grow up going there as a kid?
Mark: Yes.
Aislyn: Can you speak Scots Gaelic?
Mark: I can speak rote words because, usually, like a lot of families where there are different generations, uh, Scots Gaelic was used as a private language by the adults so that they could talk about things in front of the children.
Aislyn: [Laughter] Oh. Really?
Mark: Because I grew up in London, so I wasn’t surrounded by it.
Aislyn: That’s amazing.
Mark: You know? But yeah, so that’s a wonderful destination.
Aislyn: What I love about your suggestions too is that they really do fall into what we have been focusing on at Afar here: the lesser-touristed places around the world. Because we know there are so many. You know, there’s all the big guns, they get all the attention, especially in the summer, like the Amalfi Coast.
Mark: Can I, can I, have an “Amalfi-vention”?
Aislyn: Yes, please.
Mark: An Amalfi intervention. An Amalfi intervention.
So, I worked as a tour guide in Italy, it was my first travel job, I’ve talked about that before. And it baffles me that the Amalfi Coast, which has many beautiful aspects to it, has eclipsed a vast array of alternatives in Italy that are just as lovely, if not more so.
The Tuscan coast is where I went every summer. And Tuscany has coastline, where the beaches are as wide as the Jersey Shore and as sandy. And they are covered in beach clubs that keep the beaches clean, that have their own pools, their own restaurants.
And Italian families from Milan usually just spend the whole summer there. And if you go to Forte dei Marmi, to Viareggio, you will be with a whole load of Italians, going wherever their grandparents used to come . . .
Aislyn: Aw, I love that.
Mark: . . . sitting at the beach, and you will have an experience that is not full of traffic, where the beaches aren’t pebbly, and where most of the other people around you are Italian.
The other two alternatives, I would say, don’t, don’t forget that if you go, if you cross over Italy to the hill, to Puglia, to Auraterrae, you’re going to have really lovely beaches of a different kind. And please, please recognize, Capri is gorgeous. It is not gorgeous in July.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: It is gorgeous in October when things are a little quieter. If you want to go in the summer, next door to Capri there is an island called Ischia. It is much, much larger. It also has gorgeous mineral springs that you can take the waters in. And you’ll pay about half the price you do on Capri for the same kind of hotel. And you can take a boat over to Capri if you want to see Capri.
Aislyn: Well, since you brought up prices, what kind of deals are you seeing out there for travelers who are looking ahead to book in, in the summer?
Mark: If I were advising people on deals, travel is very stressful because everyone worries they always could have gotten a better deal.
Aislyn: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Mark: Because prices are elastic and dynamic.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: The first thing I would say about deal hunting is work out what your budget is and find, if you find a deal which hits that budget, take it. You may be able to find something cheaper at a later date. But, at some point, you have to say, I’ve got, this is my budget and let me work within it. And I think, just give yourself permission to spend the money.
I would also say this strange idea, which is sort of the zombie travel myth, that there is a magical time to book anything, is balderdash.
And shame on the travel companies that keep blurbing out press releases, intimating that there is. Because it isn’t true.
Aislyn: The secret window.
Mark: If I could abolish one thing in travel, it wouldn’t be middle seats on airplanes, it would, it, it would be this myth.
Aislyn: Wow. Those are fighting words. I mean . . .
Mark: So let me tell you why. It is a hangover to the 1970s when flight prices were fed into a computer at a particular time. In other words, they were manually typed into a system.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah.
Mark: Of course, these days they are dynamically priced using all sorts of algorithms. They change every moment. So the idea there is that unique moment—what I say to people is pick one of the flight deal-chasing services. There’s Going, there’s Dollar Flight Club. There are a lot of them now. I have used all of them.
They are the way to find a deal because they monitor flight prices and you can tell them which routes you’re interested in and the moment that price comes down, they’ll alert you. That’s the way to find the deal. And there are free and paid versions. I would encourage people, I think, there are usually free trials, but I think if you’re looking for a family of four, the paid versions are still very good value for money, and I would totally endorse them and I get no benefit from that whatsoever.
Aislyn: Yeah. The kind of upside to that is it, it doesn’t sound like people necessarily have to book, like we’re talking in February, right? They don’t have to book right now to have a great or affordable summer trip. So, I love that.
Mark: Not at all. It’s always great to plan . . .
Aislyn: Yeah, of course.
Mark: . . . but again, select those cities that you’re interested in. Give yourself a big range and keep an eye and say, “By the end of April I want to have booked something.” Give yourself your own window and I guarantee in the next few weeks you will see on one of those brilliant flight alerts, that there’s a deal somewhere you’re interested in.
Aislyn: Well, I wanted to talk a little bit more about destinations, specifically outdoor adventure, because that’s what a lot of people search for. You know, being out in the summer, you have more daylight.
Are there some interesting and maybe surprising outdoor adventures that you would recommend? Maybe any new tours that have come online?
Mark: You know, outdoor—I’m not outdoorsy in the slightest. I’m one of those people who gets very anxious when there isn’t enough sidewalk.
Please make sure there’s a taxi within reach. But I do love some outdoors experiences. And I think it’s important to remember, you can be outdoors, and have really bracing, super active vacations in places that aren’t outdoors first.
And you don’t have to go to the Colorado Rockies to go hiking. I would send you to the Caribbean to go hiking in the summer.
Aislyn: Ooh, oh that sounds amazing.
Mark: Now, I wouldn’t want to hike at noon, because it will be warm and it’ll be humid, and gosh, you should be having lunch anyway and a bit of a nap. Get up early.
But somewhere like Dominica, which is an island that I always struggle with the way this is phrased, but in the simplest terms, Dominica was least interfered with as the colonial settlers arrived. So, so much of its landscape remains pristine and very outdoorsy: waterfalls, ponds, hills, incredible hiking. But you’re on a Caribbean island, you’re not in the Rockies.
Aislyn: With all the benefits of, you know, beach time or siestas; I love that.
Mark: And it’s low season. There’ll be a lot of Europeans there, but flights to the Caribbean from the U.S. are cheaper in summer. And those volcanic islands, most of which have a mountain at the center of them, are brilliant places for outdoorsy people to have unexpected adventures.
Aislyn: Do you also recommend that people search for, like, so it’s summer here, but, obviously in the Southern Hemisphere, it’s quite different? Do you recommend that people explore outdoor destinations that maybe people don’t think about and it’s a more wintry experience?
Mark: I love a little bit of winter, chance to wear really nice wintry clothes and like, trek through the snow a little bit. But gosh, by the time June rolls around, I’m ready to get on the beach.
But I do think it is worth remembering that summer vacations come in all, in all forms. And of course, if you go to sub-Saharan Africa, it’s peak season for safari because it’s dry season.
And I would also, if you’re looking at safari, for example, South Africa is interesting. But there are lots of new operations in places like Namibia, and Namibian safari is vast sand dunes and desert-adapted lions and an otherworldly moonscape of a place.
And that is spectacular. Whatever you do, if you go to Africa on safari, do not miss the chance to go to an African beach destination. You don’t have to run over to the Maldives.
African beach culture, Mozambique’s coastline, you name it, is gorgeous.
Aislyn: I love it. I do feel like this is a good moment to talk about, not shoulder season, but when we typically talk about summer travel, we’re referring to the period between Memorial Day and Labor Day, right? But are there little windows that could be technically considered summer, but also are a little shoulder “seasonly,” or at least exist outside of the school calendars?
Any tips there?
Mark: I mean, that’s, classically, what we’re really saying is that summer is when the kids are out of school.
Aislyn: All the families are traveling.
Mark: Prices are at peak. And I don’t have kids, but I feel for anyone who gets stuck into that window because, gosh, it’s so unfair.
Aislyn: Yes, right.
Mark: What I would always suggest, airlines run seasonal routes for the summer. They will usually put on more flights.
And they will definitely be flying those routes Memorial Day to Labor Day.
They tend to start and finish them a little earlier and a little later. Partly to workshop the kinks of a new route and a new airport, and partly just to drum up some business. And I think a good example of that is, United is a carrier that’s very adventurous, and it tends to program new locations that it will sample and, you know, sip it and see.
It has a route to Palma in Mallorca from Newark.
Aislyn: OK.
Mark: Which it trialed a few years ago and did so well that it now operates four times a week in the summer. But it doesn’t start on Memorial Day. It starts before that. And the prices on that route in summer are expensive. People love that direct nonstop to a gorgeous Mediterranean island.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah.
Mark: Look at the early part of that window. Look at the bit after Labor Day. Any of those seasonal routes, you’ve got a real sweet spot. The prices are gonna be cheaper, and I guarantee the weather will be good enough for you to think, gosh, I’m glad I’ve come.
Aislyn: And how do you recommend that people understand if a route is seasonal or not? I mean, if you’re not paying attention to it all year long.
Mark: So, look on the airline. The airlines will all tout proudly the new services that they have for the summer. So, if you’re, some people are airline devotees, alliance devotees. But if not, I would look at all of the carriers and see what they’ve added in, because they do add them and they won’t have the same ones every year.
There might be an Atlanta–Pisa flight that they trial and they think, meh, that didn’t work. So don’t assume what there was last summer is the same this summer, but that’s half the fun.
Aislyn: This is also an interesting year in terms of travel because with the current administration, there is a lot of confusion and concern about how Americans might be perceived abroad. There’s some confusion about traveling here, who can travel? There’s just a lot going on. So how do you personally navigate that?
Mark: I have an American passport, but not the accent, at least to most Americans. I think that travel in general is the greatest anti-conflict, antiwar tool we have.
The more you see other cultures firsthand, experience them firsthand, talk to people from places that sound scary, and just have a coffee with them, the less easy it is to be afraid of or angry at them.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: And I think, as always, we should go to other cultures humbly and curious and willing to make a bit of a fool of ourselves. And if we do that, everyone will be happy to see us.
Aislyn: Yeah, willing to make a fool of ourselves in the right way. Do you ever worry about how you’ll be perceived abroad and make changes because of that?
Mark: I think it’s, it’s also, it’s almost, I’m a very loud, Day-Glo person in every way. And I also think when you travel, we should, we should, reduce the volume of our voices literally and metaphorically.
Aislyn: Yes. Yeah.
Mark: And Aislyn has a much more gentler, softer tone than me. I think it’s “be more Aislyn than Mark” when you travel. But that sense of quieter, softer.
Aislyn: Yeah, yeah. Or read the room, you know, maybe if you are in a pub, I should be more Mark in those situations. That’s when no one can hear me. So, it’s just like a mouth is moving, but nothing’s coming out. But I think like understanding the culture, right? And are these a quieter people than perhaps you want to just take it down a notch.
But it’s funny to me that people don’t often calibrate in that way. I think it’s maybe sometimes a discomfort or a fear, like they feel uncomfortable and you can’t really think in those moments. So.
Mark: And I also think, you know, politics is so polarizing at the moment. But I think most, most smart people recognize that people from a country aren’t a monolith, nor are people from a country advocates for or critics of their government. They just live there.
Aislyn: Yes, exactly.
Mark: And they might want to talk about politics, or they might have no interest at all and just be really keen to find out, find the best spaghetti in Italy, and they’re gonna eat as many bowls as it takes till they get there.
Aislyn: Another tricky topic is climate change and how that is impacting our summers from fires to extreme heat. So you talked about, at the beginning, like, go north in Europe, you know, you can get away from some of the crowds, some of the heat, but do you have any other tips on planning and or navigating?
I know in the past you’ve really recommended that insurance?
Mark: Sensible Weather.
Aislyn: Sensible Weather.
Mark: So, if you’re really concerned about problems with the weather, there are insurance companies like Sensible Weather, and several others now, who will offer effectively weather guarantees. They focused initially really on ski season and they are moving to work on heat, if the heat is oppressive.
Aislyn: Yeah.
Mark: I would encourage people to remember that you can have a gorgeous time at the beach in the Nordics. You know, we cannot unilaterally combat climate change on a single trip. And don’t get me started about the balderdash around travel being the worst thing for climate change. I will, I will have that fight till the day I die.
Aislyn: Yes.
Mark: A cheap T-shirt is way worse for the planet than a trip to another country where you engage with other people and connect with the world. It adds so much value.
But if you are, if you are concerned about the heat, go to the beach in Copenhagen. Gosh, you can swim in the waters of Copenhagen. Refshaleøen, which is this hipster haven with great restaurants, with outdoor swimming plunge areas, and you climb out and you get a local microbrew, and you sit there and you, you dry off, while a whole load of local people play board games around you.
That’s amazing.
Aislyn: That is amazing. And it’s just recalibrating, I think, our sense of what is classic, you know, and not falling into the traps of going where everyone else does.
Mark: But equally, you know, remember, if you go, for example, to the Cyclades in the summer, the Cyclades are very windy. That is what put them at the center of the Mediterranean trade routes for so long, because you could sail more easily in that region. One of the things that wind does when it’s really hot is cool you off.
So think about the Cyclades. Mykonos in May is colder than New York in February. Mykonos in July might well be balmy and gorgeous because it is so breezy.
Aislyn: Funny how wind at different times can be a foe or a friend.
Mark: Or a friend. Yeah, yeah.
Aislyn: Well, I’d love to close with just your, I don’t know, more nostalgic thoughts on summer. What has been memorable for you? What have you learned over the years?
Mark: So, I mentioned the Tuscan coast a little earlier and my childhood going there every summer. And what I learned from that experience, we stayed, I was very fortunate, I traveled a lot as a child. But one of the things we did every year was we stayed in the same hotel room in the same hotel . . .
Aislyn: Oh. Wow.
Mark: . . . in the same place. Summer after summer.
And, yes, my mother loves—she’s a creature of habit, and that was definitely, she drove that decision. But what it created for me was a special place in the world, that whenever I go back to, I feel like I belong. And when I am there in summer, I’ll be going again to stay at a new hotel that I love the sound of, in, in Forte dei Marmi, called Pensione America.
When I go there, I am nine years old again, eating an ice cream as big as my head on a hot summer afternoon, learning a bit of Italian with the other kids because I had to learn a bit of Italian if I was going to join in the games, watching people cycle by, and really having the best moment. And I think summer memories are often most treasured when they’re in the same place.
Don’t be afraid to go back somewhere over and over. That has value too.
Aislyn: We’ve talked about this idea of, like, destinations as friends or cities as friends, you know, this idea of building an understanding, building a relationship, watching it change. And I think, doing that abroad, it’s a really lovely idea to consider building that relationship.
Especially if you have kids, because like obviously that’s something that, you know, your parents created and now you have this fantastic memory.
Mark: It also, remember kids can—I’m an only child. So one of the reasons I had to learn Italian, because otherwise I was going to play with my parents. So I had to learn Italian as a little kid. And that probably steered me on my path to working in travel, because I spoke a random language that few people have the chance to learn, and so I could work in travel.
And so you never know, especially taking kids abroad, they’re really open to things like that. And I had my summer friends, who all lived in Milan, who I’d see every summer.
Aislyn: That’s so cool. And just, overcoming any fear of joining in a new culture, a new language. If you can do that once and, you know, completely fall into a sense of safety, like, you could do it again and again, right? And what a better way to grow up, like we were talking about, you know, that creates an ambassador.
Mark: I just, I’m just, I’m slightly verklempt now. I’m slightly, whatever the Italian is for verklempt, I’m dreaming of the Tuscan coast. But I will, again, I go. . .
Aislyn: Verklemte.
Mark: [Laughs]. Verklemte. I do go back regularly. And that is one of my big things in travel. It is OK to go back to places.
Aislyn: And that is our dip into all the summer goodness that awaits. Do you have a special summer place that you return to again and again? Tell us about it. Leave us a voicemail at the link of the show notes and we may feature you in a future episode.
In the show notes, we’ve also linked to Mark’s “Where to Go” this summer story, his website and social media handles. For even more tips on how to navigate the summer, watch for our “Best Summer Yet” miniseries rolling out this May.
Next week, we’ll be unpacking the Mississippi Blues.
Billy: You know, it’s just so important that, uh, when people come here for the blues tourism, and originally most of it was blues centric, but now people really want to know why was the blues birthed here. And it’s really an amalgamation of so many things. So, to have the whole world come here and us have to look at ourselves through the world’s eyes helps us not become as static as we could. So, it’s just a real blessing.
Aislyn: Ready for more Unpacking? Visit afar.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Tiktok. We’re @afarmedia. If you enjoy today’s exploration, I hope you’ll come back for more great stories. Subscribing always makes that easy, and be sure to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platforms. It helps other travelers find it.
And if you want to ask a question or suggest a topic for coverage, you can leave us a voicemail at the link in the show notes, or email us at unpacked@afar.com
This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media. The podcast is produced by Aislyn Greene and Nikki Galteland. Music composition by Chris Colin.
And remember, the travel world is complicated. We’re here to help you unpack it.
