S5, E14: Forget the Algorithm. Here’s How to Actually Eat Well When You Travel.

Jennifer Hope Choi plans every trip the same way: open a Google doc, start with food, and build outward from there. As a former Bon Appétit editor, 13-year restaurant industry veteran, and author of a travel memoir, she has strong opinions about Michelin guides (skip ‘em), low-rated restaurants (sometimes worth it), and why you should always follow your optician’s food recs.

She also edited Afar’s debut Travel to Eat series, which includes three stories: Jeju black pork and a life-changing soup, Sherpa cuisine in the Rockies, and why Portland, Maine, might be America’s best bakery town.

Meet today’s guest

Jennifer Hope Choi is a senior editor at Afar and the architect of its Travel to Eat series. A former Bon Appétit editor and 13-year restaurant industry veteran, she is also an award-winning writer and author of the travel memoir the Wanderer’s Curse. Her work spans food and culture, and the messy, joyful overlap between the two.

Transcript

Aislyn Greene: I’m Aislyn Greene. This is Unpacked by Afar, and today we are talking about two of my favorite subjects: food and travel. Today’s guest is new to Afar, but she is no stranger to food and the ways that it can deeply and deliciously connect us with place. I’m chatting with Afar senior editor Jennifer Hope Choi, who has some serious travel and food bona fides. She was an editor at Bon Appétit for years. She’s an award-winning writer who’s penned a memoir called The Wanderer’s Curse. That link is in the show notes. And in her new role at Afar, she helmed a series called Travel to Eat, which doesn’t really need any explaining, so let’s just get to it. She’s going to share what she looks for in a great food story, her travel philosophy, which involves a very well-curated Google Doc, and her number-one tip for eating well on the road.

Jen, welcome.

Jennifer Choi: I’m so happy to see you and, and be on the pod.

Aislyn: Yes, be on the pod talking about food. I mean, how much do you love that? You were just telling us about this amazing scone and apparently you had this morning. So it feels like, you know, that was a good on-ramp for this conversation.

Jen: Yes. I wanted to tee us up in the right way.

Aislyn: Well, Jen, I wanted to start at the very beginning with you because as we know, childhood can play such an important role in our relationship with food, so, for example, my mother and grandmother didn’t really like to cook. And in fact, my grandmother had this rather infamous dish called refrigerator soup that we still talk about today. But somehow all of that created in me an obsession with food and for my sister too. So I’m curious to know, what was your early relationship with food?

Jen: I grew up a latchkey kid, so I was home all the time by myself, and I also grew up during the very early days of Food Network. So I watched a lot of Two Hot Tamales. Of course, Martin Yan from Yan Can Cook. So I watched all these food shows to, I don’t know, there’s something about them I knew instantly that appealed to me, especially Two Hot Tamales. Mary Sue Milliken and Susan Feniger and they’re amazing chefs, their best friends. And I even remember to this day, this one episode about shabu-shabu, and they were saying something like, oh, it’s the sound of swishing the meat in the broth and the, you know, shabu-shabu.

So the first time that I started cooking for myself was when I was quite young, I think around like ten or something. Um, I did a stir-fry that I think I learned from Martin Yan. Uh, so I already knew that I loved to cook, but I would say that my tastes from the very young age were high-low, and I’ve kind of gone with that. One of the first pieces that I ever wrote that was published in a cult-favorite food journal called Lucky Peach, was about my obsession with McDonald’s Monopoly as a child, and then trying to track down a winner of McDonald’s Monopoly. The whole beginning of the piece is about how I would go all the time to McDonald’s and get like, for that whole week. So I loved kind of junky stuff like any kid, but also was very intrigued by more complex flavors. And my grandmother was an incredible cook. So, uh, we just talked about her on my Seoul trip that I just came back from because she recently passed away.

Aislyn: Oh, I’m sorry.

Jen: Thank you. And, um, one of the fond memories was how she made me these Korean pancakes, which are like latkes, basically. And I ate 13 in, in one sitting. Uh, so she always would say the first bite is as good as the last bite. I just savor everything. And that’s always how I’ve been as a child. So I love eating. It brings me joy like so many people.

Aislyn: Yes. And I love these different touch points, right? You have your kind of like fast food, this high-low idea. And then you have being home. And I’m imagining the Food Network was like a source of comfort. You know, you’re home by yourself and you’re looking for connection and you love food. And so how did you arrive where you are today? You worked at Bon Appétit for many years, but how did you go from, you know, watching the Food Network as a kid to writing and writing about food?

Jen: I actually moved to New York when I was 17, so I was bright-eyed and babe in the woods. I worked in film and TV for a long time, and then I decided I wanted to work on my own stories and tell my own stories, and they were certainly not being reflected in any of the projects I was working on.

So I decided to go switch careers and focus on writing. I went to an MFA program. Um, and that is when I, actually, while I was working in film, I had a serf-like position, so I needed to supplement the wages. I heard that, uh, bartending was fast cash. I had a friend who bartended at Bowlmor Lanes in Union Square and she was just like, oh my gosh, you can make so much money as a bartender. And so I started out at a beer garden and went from there to dives, clubs, Michelin-star restaurants, neighborhood restaurants, speakeasies, everything from there. And I did that while I was pursuing writing because I wanted to have more flexibility. And I also really loved working in the restaurant industry, but it was definitely time to go when it was time to go. So I had burnt out on like dealing with people and stuff. So I wasn’t a lifer. But I think, you know, they all say everybody should work at a restaurant at some point. And I totally believe it.

Aislyn: Agreed. Agreed. It just, you know, teaches you how to, I think, treat people in general and how you don’t want to be treated or treat people.

Jen: Yes. A lot of nightmare situations for sure. But I think it has also given me insight on how I go about finding places to eat when I’m traveling and what I look for and what I appreciate out of an experience. Whether it’s at a street food market or night market or in an award-winning restaurant. I just think about all the things that I’ve learned over the years, for sure.

Aislyn: Well, you segued beautifully into that question. Tell me more. How do you look at food and beverages when you’re traveling? Like, is it the most important part of a trip or is it, you know, a part of the trip?

Jen: At the risk of sounding like a total rube, I would say it is the only thing that I think about to begin with. I’m rather notorious among my friends for my detailed Google Docs for every destination that I end up going to. So it’s mostly just for me to gather information, and have it all in one place. So I primarily start with food. If there’s a very interesting textile tradition or fiber art tradition, I’m also super into that kind of stuff as a hobbyist, a sewer, and a fiber artist.

Aislyn: So amazing.

Jen: But it’s always about food to start with. And it, of course, is a lens to understand culture and a sense of a place as well. So I consider it as a conduit for understanding history and culture and the evolving identity of a place. I start with food, so I go all over the place on the internet, figuring out and also through personal recommendations from friends. I look at what regular people are saying and the peanut galleries of the comment sections of Google Maps and Reddit, of course, and all kinds of different places. And then I also try to look at local writers. What do they cover? Even if it’s in a different language, can I, can I check that out? Can I see what city papers and city magazines are saying to get a better understanding on the ground. And then I kind of cull all of this information and you start picking up on threads, classic dishes that a city is known for, um, categories of food, also the cross-section of cultures because of immigrant communities, all of that starts to surface and I build my itinerary around that as well as museums and, uh, outdoor activities.

Aislyn: And those are the snacks in between the meals.

Jen: Well, maybe. I won’t say that I’m exclusively just eating. I have to work off the food as well. But I would say that I have, I suffer from decision fatigue and, and it is so real for me because too many choices, you know, many of us feel this way. But I think that helps sort of allow me to understand the geography of a place, what neighborhoods exist, where the food points of interest are. And then I’m not going to drill down a list of I have to eat at 11:30, I’m doing this and this. I might sort of offer myself a skeleton, but I think the best way of learning about a place is by asking people that you can trust along the way. So, you know.

Aislyn: Yeah.

Jen: I was at this amazing, uh, eyewear store in Seoul. I knew I wanted to go here because all the glasses would fit me. And they don’t usually because of my petite bridge. So I went in. I knew I wanted to get glasses. The optician said it was going to be an hour, and my mom was like, Hey, what’s a great fried chicken place? Because we wanted to have real Korean fried chicken. And she recommended a place and it had like 2.8 stars on Kakao Maps. And I just thought, girl, why is this chicken place so bad? And then we went and it was spectacular.

So there are many instances where the reviews don’t really make any sense, but she said with great passion that this was one of her favorite places. And the way she closed her eyes and talked about it, I said, okay, this is, let’s give it a, let’s give it a go. And so taking those risks along the way, and it’s okay, it’s okay to be looser about what you encounter along the way. And, um, also taking not just recommendations from people who you meet at stores, which is absolutely something I think you should do, but making sure that there are things that they love because I’ve been in places where they’re like, oh, Americans love this and I don’t want to be anywhere in those places.

Aislyn: Right? You’re like, okay, thank you. That’s where I will not go. I appreciate that information. Well, it’s interesting that you share that story about visiting a place with 2.8 stars and loving it, because that is a trouble sometimes with lists and ratings, right? They can be a point of reference, but they can also narrow a place for us or remove a layer of serendipity. And I think people get afraid of having a bad meal. And sometimes it is just nice to follow your nose and see where it leads you or trust your optician. So how do you approach all of that when you travel? You know, lists, ratings, stars, Michelin guides?

Jen: I would say, first of all, Michelin Guide, World’s 50 Best Restaurants, all of that stuff. I mean, I worked at a food publication and I don’t care about any of those lists. I think what’s important is to consider who the audience is and if — if you belong to that audience. For me, I don’t really fancy feast as much anymore, which is, you know, what I call going to the very expensive, buzzy restaurants. And sometimes they’re absolutely worth pursuing because it’s an experience, right?

If a chef is doing something really interesting that speaks to how their contributions are evolving a place’s identity, I think that’s fascinating. And so if that’s a Michelin-star place, if it’s a Korean restaurant in Uzbekistan or a Korean-Uzbeki restaurant in Brooklyn, like all these things are super interesting to me because they share some information about people and how we move around the world and how we adjust to and create community and home through the food that we make and sustain ourselves with.

I would say if a fancy restaurant pops and you’re like, Oh, that sounds really delicious and exciting and interesting, yeah, I will possibly go that direction. But mostly I’m seeking out food that just makes you close your eyes with deep pleasure. And it’s highly unique to wherever you’re going. And maybe that means something that is very cheap on the street, and you wonder if it’s gonna make you sick, but you’re gonna do it anyway.

Aislyn: And it smells so good.

Jen: And hey, for our upset-tummy girlies out there, highly recommend traveling with Alka-Seltzer Upset Stomach. It’s a great thing to keep on hand. But yeah, I think I try to find a mix of small places, small hole-in-the-wall type places or places that I feel are frequented by locals. But I also have recently been giving myself the reality check and grace of like, you’re a tourist, you’re a foreigner, and that’s, you have a role in being a foreigner. There’s no, there’s no such thing as full immersion. And even being in Korea again, I’ve visited many times because of my family. But I mean, that was a huge challenge for me because that was a place where so many people assumed I was from. And when I got there, everyone asked, you know, are you Japanese? Are you Chinese? Oh my God, Korean people were asking me that. So I think embracing being a tourist and a foreigner there has been really helpful to me because I am. And if I’m intentional about how I’m experiencing this place, I’m giving back to and being a part of this community for people to flourish and for the community to flourish.

Aislyn: So how do you think about revisiting cities? You know, we’ve talked a little bit about this idea of like befriending a city or a place and getting to know it. And so when you’re doing return visits, like, do you try to go back to some of your favorites? Do you try to find new stuff? Like what is your approach?

Jen: When I return to a place I think about, for example, Portland, Oregon. I love Portland, I go pretty frequently, and there are some places that I absolutely want to go back to because they make me so happy. And so I will return to the coffee shop that I love and also fit in a massage at a Loyly, because I love it. But I also want to let my friends choose. Where are we gonna have dinner? Can you just take that decision off my plate? I don’t even want to have to worry about that. Yeah, I think that with a place like Seoul, I haven’t fully embraced it the way that I would want to yet, because all my trips previously have been around seeing family and very limited time. And so on this trip, it felt that way as well.

But I think when I go back, I hope I get to go back and, and experience it like in a full, full way. Because usually I’m staying in Suwon, which is just south of Seoul, and it’s truly a, a village. It’s very different. And when we went in, my mom was just like country mouse, I’m a country mouse. And I was even feeling out of step as a person who lives in a city and as a city person, I felt like a country mouse too. But yeah, I think it can be so overwhelming putting all your stars on the map and looking at all your things that sometimes you just kind of, I don’t know. Trust fall backward into wherever you’re gonna find yourself. So sometimes when I get really overwhelmed in a neighborhood, I will just look at my list and I will get so overwhelmed because nothing’s open that I’ll just decide. Maybe I’ll go to this new place because I actually have to stop deciding.

Aislyn: Totally. Yes.

Jen: But I like to do a mix. If it’s a place that I love and I am with someone new, I always love to go back to bring that person to see it through their eyes and share the experience. Because of course, food that’s shared is even more meaningful sometimes. So it can be a mix. I think there’s endless possibilities in a place like Seoul and so many huge cities around the world. So I think I’ll probably keep going to new places. But who knows, there might be a spot where I want to share it with somebody because it’s so special.

Aislyn: Yeah, absolutely. There’s this salad that I had at Golden Hour in Asheville called Purple and Greens. And like, I want that salad again so badly. So like, I would go back just to see if they had something similar. You know, there’s places where I feel like there’s been this dish that kind of haunts me in that way. But I like the idea of just taking some pressure off of ourselves.

Dining has become so high-stakes that we’ve lost a little bit of the exploration and also just what it’s meant to be, which is a way to connect with people and cultures. And that’s what I’ve been working on, is actually having less, less of a list and more of like a sense of adventure.

Jen: Absolutely. I’m working towards that too. It makes me sound high-strung.

Aislyn: No, no.

Jen: I mean, I think I am because in the moment I’m like, I but there’s so much delicious food and I need to eat it all. But I gotta say, one trip that I loved, that was all food. Well, pretty much all food-focused was when I went for a big—a milestone birthday to the Basque Country, and it was such a spectacular trip. I wanted to tour and have all the best pintxos every single day and then leave the trip by saying in my friend group, what was the best bite?

Aislyn: Yeah.

Jen: Choose your best pintxo out of the entire trip. And so we were able to do that, which was super fun. And also I love Txakoli, which is also where Getaria, which is where we stayed for a bit. And then we started in Bilbao, Getaria, and then San Sebastián. And I made an amazing friend who I think is in his eighties, and we still talk, we’re still pen pals. Javier — shout out Javier!

Aislyn: Hey, Javier.

Jen: When he took me to his favorite pintxo places on my last day after my friends left, and it was such a beautiful experience. And he still sends me photos of his favorite pintxo. And he says, oh, I’m, I’m having this scallop and thinking of you. And now I will go bathe in the ocean and think of you, because he always goes and swims in the sea. It’s very Basque, I guess.

Aislyn: But I love it. He’s living the best life. Was that your favorite bite then, would you say?

Jen: No, but something that he took me to was my favorite bite. I love anchovies and it’s the place to go, and there are about three or four different things all throughout San Sebastián that I would go to absolutely again and devour, because it just brought me so much pleasure and happiness, especially to experience it with my friends.

Aislyn: Well, speaking of stories, part of the reason you’re here today is because you edited this Travel to Eat package that’s going live this week. And there are three stories as part of this. One is about bakeries in Portland, Maine. One is about Jeju Black Pork in Korea, and one is about Sherpa food in Colorado. So what do you look for in a great food story? What makes a great food story?

Jen: Yes, we got a lot of pitches. A lot of them were great for this package. And it’s the first time I believe we’re doing this Travel to Eat series. So for me, I knew if I was doing three stories, I wanted a wide range of the types of stories we were going to tell. So we ended up with three different perspectives.

One is this story about Elise Inamine. She’s an incredible food writer and cookbook co-author and just a soup aficionado. She loves soups. Uh, and so she went to Jeju Island. It’s a volcanic island off the south coast of South Korea, known for its gorgeous citrus and fresh seafood. But it’s really known for this type of pig that has been living on the island for a very, very long time called the Jeju Black Pig. It has black skin, they’re small. There’s a history to how they were in every household at some point. But when you go to Jeju, everyone tells you you have to eat this pork. And even when you’re in Korea, Jeju Black Pork is such a thing. It’s very desired. It’s exquisite marbling. It’s just something that you want to enjoy. And usually it’s char-grilled and that is how most people sell it on Jeju. But through a chance encounter at a coffee omakase, she gets a recommendation to go to a small restaurant where she has it in a very different form than it’s normally served, and it was a transcendent experience for her.

So I guess the question that I was looking to is like, why do we travel to eat? And what does that mean? Sometimes you travel to be surprised. She is also a kind of person who puts lists together, but she definitely incorporates so much more, uh, free opportunity. And so she got this recommendation, they drove and it was, her words, the best soup she’s ever had. So exploring this lesser-known pork, this lesser-known breed of pig that is up there for many with Ibérico and Berkshire pigs. This is a Korean pig. And the version of this dish happened by happenstance. And it’s a personal story, a personal narrative.

Aislyn: She wrote so beautifully about that soup. It was so poetic. And you’re just there with her having that transcendent moment. And then we transitioned to this other story about Sherpa or Himalayan cuisine in Colorado, written by Vinita Salisbury. So how do you see that fitting into the mix?

Jen: So I really wanted to have variety in these three stories we were telling. So we have the personal narrative with the Jeju Pork story by Elise. Then we have this reported piece about Sherpa cuisine in the Rockies. And it’s such an interesting story about chain migration. It’s about how Sherpas have been coming over. Many of them in these communities are former Everest trek guides, and they’ve met so many people from Colorado while on Everest and leading these treks. And just because of a similar high-altitude lifestyle and outdoorsiness, I guess, that appeals to Coloradans. So these Sherpas have been coming over and primary to the way that they’ve created and nurtured their communities are these restaurants.

So because cooking is so essential when you’re growing up as a Sherpa in these very remote villages and places, everyone knows how to cook. And so that is a very common immigrant story of, okay, we have to start making a living for ourselves here. How are we going to do that? The restaurants are a touchstone for them. And it’s also bringing incredibly interesting food here to the states and also specifically to this region of the Rockies, because of how much it is reminiscent of their understanding of home. So it’s about a few different people who are highlighted throughout about their stories of coming over and starting a new life in, in the Rockies, and also several restaurants to look out for if you’re in the Rockies that serve Himalayan food and specifically Sherpa cuisine.

Aislyn: And last but not least, is a story about America’s best bakery town. Portland, Maine, written by Ragan Stevens. So tell me what you loved about this story.

Jen: What’s exciting about this story is the clear stance it takes. Portland is America’s best bakery town. It’s got ten toes down on that statement and saying, this is why I’m backing it up. It’s not just personal preference. And there are all these reasons, all these contributing factors, having to do with a place where people feel that they can go and really chase their passions and get kind of weird, get a little quirky and work with exceptional ingredients that are really tended to through relationships, to purveyors and farmers and makers. And because of the fleeting seasons, these ingredients that they’re working with are really, really wonderful.

So the argument is there’s a reason why Portland, Maine, which has won all these awards recently, James Beard, we talk about why that is and also several places that you need to mark down and go through and eat something delicious every single day on your trip to Portland, Maine.

Aislyn: And in that way, it doesn’t feel like a list, right? Like it feels like a primer on a place about why it became such a great town for bakeries and a way in. And so I just want to congratulate you on all three of these stories, because I read them and I was like, yep, want to go and experience all of these things.

Jen: Thank you. With the Colorado story, you might just end up in the Rockies and remember, oh yeah, there’s something really cool happening here. There’s incredible Sherpa cuisine for a reason. And this is the reason why, and that’s why I’m going to go seek out that food while I’m there. With Jeju. It’s about an entire type of food and dish that is so special to a place, and also of a delicious, special version of Jeju Black Pork. And then the Portland piece, I think is just very functional and exciting to know. Why is it, you know, I’ve been thinking about like, why did, why do I keep seeing Portland and all these little bakeries? Well, there’s a reason why and this is why. And this is also a few things to keep in your notes, so you can go eat all the best things while you’re on your trip.

Aislyn: Put it in your own Google Doc. I would love to see a Jen Google Doc one of these days.

Jen: It’s so embarrassing. It’s so embarrassing.

Aislyn: It’s truly a doc and not a sheet.

Jen: I’m not bound to the cells of the sheet.

Aislyn: I love it. Well, I would like to end with some of your kind of advice for travelers who put food first. Practical advice to give the hangry masses.

Jen: Oh yes. I would say if you end up going to a really cool store, maybe it’s a boutique. I love stationery stores and home goods stores. I love all that kind of stuff. So if you go there and you are able to talk to somebody, just ask them what their favorite place is to eat anywhere, anywhere in the city or nearby, just to see what they’ll say. And maybe it’s something along the lines of what you already have in mind, but maybe it’ll totally surprise you. And it would have never been on your radar because it has a stanky Google review rating. And that’s okay. And you should just take a little risk and be a little bit flexible. One meal is okay to give to the travel gods and risk.

Aislyn: Only one?

Jen: Oh well, maybe more, maybe more. We’ll start with one. We’re taking small steps, so start with one and see what they say. Maybe they’ll give you a giant list and you love it so much you want to follow all the recommendations the rest of the trip?

Aislyn: Great advice. Any other advice?

Jen: Well, I mean, same goes if you go to a bar that you really love, see where they go on their nights off. I think that’s a huge tell on the spots, because also that means that they’re not going to be rammed with tourists probably, and they might have some extra info that’s valuable.

Aislyn: Do you make reservations before you go?

Jen: Oh, man.

Aislyn: Or does it depend on the place?

Jen: It depends on the place. And I definitely got to Seoul on my last trip and thought I screwed this up because everything’s on Catch Table and I totally forgot, but it ended up being fine. So I think it can just be really overwhelming when you’re on like you’re at the place. My friend who experienced one of my Google Docs said it this way when we went to Todos Santos in, in Baja. And when we went, she was looking around. She’s like, we’re in the doc, we’re in the doc because things are just, you know, all of a sudden we’re seeing the places that I put together and walking the park that I put in the doc and all that.

So sometimes when you’re there and you’re in the doc, it can be really overwhelming to remember I’m here. This is incredible. I got on a tin-can thing and went across the oceans and I’m suddenly here. How crazy is that? It’s not a tin can, I know that it’s not. But you know the miracle of travel and that you’re there, and to just ease up a bit and remember, wow, I’m here and maybe I’ll just put my phone away and walk and see where that leads me. Because also another good tell is, are there a lot of people in that place and are they locals? That’s probably a good sign too. So sometimes you just gotta put the phone away and walk around. And if there are a ton of people in a place, go inside too.

Aislyn: Well, how do you feel about trying some lightning-round questions?

Jen: Oh, let’s do it.

Aislyn: Okay.

Jen: All right. Okay. I’m ready.

Aislyn: What is the last best thing you ate?

Jen: Um, these Korean squash jeon, which is Korean squash that looks like a light green zucchini cut into coins, pan-fried with, like, an eggy batter that my mom made. And they’re my favorite.

Aislyn: Amazing. Okay. Fantastic. City you would return to again and again for food?

Jen: San Sebastián. I would go back to San Sebastián. I would have so many anchovy toasts and txakoli and tortillas.

Aislyn: Favorite food book?

Jen: Oh, anything by M.F.K. Fisher. I think she was the absolute queen. She taught me so much when I was first figuring out how to write about food. What makes a spectacular food story? It’s not a food story. It’s just a story. But the way that she engages with food is incredible. So I would definitely say everything by M.F.K. Fisher. Sorry, that’s not a short answer.

Aislyn: No. It’s great, I love it.

Jen: The Art of Eating. It’s right there.

Aislyn: I see it, I see it, okay. Fantastic. Uh, most memorable cocktail?

Jen: That’s a great question. Okay, I know what it is. I would say a cocktail that changed the way that I drink, I was in Porto in Portugal sometime around 2017, maybe, and it was the first time that I had white port and tonic. And it was—I’d never heard of having port as a cocktail, but it’s an incredibly quaffable, perfect drink during warm weather. Obviously people know about ruby and tawny port, but white port is its own thing. And where I had it was this tiny bar that I went to a couple of times while I was in Porto, because I loved it so much. Very simple: ice, white port, good tonic water. And then you can add a cinnamon stick. I had it with, um, mint and a lemon slice.

Aislyn: Yeah.

Jen: You can have any kind of garnish or no garnish, but it is incredibly refreshing, crushable. And it has some beautiful, I don’t know, spice notes from the port, but it’s peak summer for me. So when I have a white port and tonic, I know the seasons are changing. I’m in a good place and that’s what I want for a summer drink.

Aislyn: Yeah, I love that. I’m gonna try that in my next summer gathering. Okay. Early bird or late night for dining, like 5 p.m. or 10 p.m.?

Jen: Give me the early bird special. Absolutely.

Aislyn: All right. And finally, what’s the biggest food surprise you’ve ever encountered?

Jen: I’m gonna — I’m gonna riff on this a bit. I feel like maybe it wasn’t a surprise. I love Bojangles, I lived in the South for a bit. The Bo Rounds are unparalleled, my friend.

Aislyn: I don’t know if I know what that is.

Jen: Those are their version of hash browns and they’re round and fried. My mom introduced me to the Bojangles breakfast. It’s iconic and the Bo Rounds are very special. In fact, my friend who’s the chef at Chubby Fish in Charleston, South Carolina, a freaking fantastic restaurant. For a while, he had this dish that was off-menu, that was a caviar service, and he served it with Bo Rounds. I mean, he’s made many kinds of things that you can eat caviar off of, but he said nothing like a Bo Round. They have something in there that’s special. So he had a guy that he would get his Bo Rounds from. So I thought, what’s up with Bojangles? Because you see it everywhere in the South and it’s actually pretty amazing for breakfast. So I will say that.

And I might just add in another one, which is that man, maybe it’s just my age or something, but being on social media and seeing places that are on there and then going to the towns or the areas or neighborhoods and seeing the lines. It’s just like, this place is not worth it. You guys, like you will not catch me in a line at this age. And I think, yeah, I wouldn’t trust any of that stuff really, as a barometer for how you should enjoy a kind of thing to eat when you’re when you’re traveling. I think it’s cool to look at for intel, but I wouldn’t trust it personally. I saw a couple of lines in this neighborhood called Seongsu and I was like, bye, y’all can wait.

Aislyn: I’m not gonna go right around the corner to something just as great.

Jen: Exactly, exactly what happened. Exactly how I found my scone. Full circle!

Aislyn: Amazing. Oh my gosh, look at that. Well, that is the sign that we’re done. So.

Jen: You had enough of me, I know.

Aislyn: No, never. I could never have enough of you. You’re fantastic. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat today. Is there anything else that you want to add?

Jen: I mean, I don’t know. What do you love about traveling to eat? What do you, what do you think that that’s supposed to be?

Aislyn: I think it’s really changed over the years. I think I was for a long time, I would have a very heavily researched, mapped-out list. And I don’t know, I just don’t care as much in that way. I don’t care about the awards, I don’t want to do the tasting menus. I want to have a really good meal. I want to have a great drink. I want to sit at the bar. I want to listen to people at the bar and talk to the bartender. And yeah, it’s so different. I want to connect with people. I want to listen. I don’t want to wait. You’re right. So maybe it is just an aging thing, but it’s also like, I feel so over the kind of commodification that has come about online and on social media, I feel grossed out by it, honestly.

Jen: I do too. And I just want to say like, maybe this is my PSA about it. I think put your phone away, put your phone away. I do not believe in a phone being out when you’re eating or interacting with somebody else. But definitely…

Aislyn: I agree.

Jen: The commodification is ringing true for me too, because, and I felt this too, living in New York just as long as I had, that, as if going to these places accumulates to a personality or an identity, and it doesn’t. And so I think the reason why we want to have delicious food experiences and meaningful food experiences is because of being in the moment and being really whatever it means to be present for you, which is one of those phrases that just gets tossed around that doesn’t mean anything anymore, but I think it means closing your eyes. And what is this? What does this taste like? What does it bring up for me? Also, maybe it’s really different, or maybe it’s startlingly familiar, even though you’re in a really faraway place. I think those moments bring you closer to something abstract that cannot be posted, that cannot be shared. That is for you. And I think that’s what’s important about traveling and how food can be a part of it.

Aislyn: Yeah. And I think there’s also like, I like to cook, and so I feel like I appreciate how hard it is to make something great. And so when you taste something great, it’s like, this is this person who has devoted their life or, you know, at least a couple of days or weeks or months or whatever to making this fantastic thing. And so connecting with that and their passion and their willingness to be there and stand on their feet for hours, there’s just something about that gift that I think is so beautiful and like appreciating the energy and the life that went into making something really wonderful.

Jen: It’s human.

Aislyn: Kind of cheesy.

Jen: No, it’s true though, I think, I think being earnest is underrated. The human touch, whether that’s from something made that you get to consume and cherish and treasure or interactions with people in the physical way of like hugging them and all that, like the human connection we have is really unparalleled. The closer we can be reminded of that, and also that it’s like the frailty of that, hey, the meal might not be amazing all the time because these are human beings and it can’t be perfect every single time.

Aislyn: Totally.

Jen: And also that you get this one moment, you might come back, but it’ll be different. Yeah. So what are you going to do about that moment? Are you going to be on your phone the whole time or are you going to really savor it?

Aislyn: Well, Jen, thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time again.

Jen: This is a blast. I’ll do it anytime you want.

Aislyn: Thank you so much for joining this episode of Unpacked. We’ve included links to Jen’s book and her social handles in the show notes, as well as the three food stories she mentioned. Next week, we’ll be back with a drive up the Oregon coast in an electric truck hauling an Airstream. And yes, there are tears.