S5, E12: How Two Years of Phone-Free Travel Rewired the Way I See the World

What if the secret to a great trip was leaving your phone in airplane mode — forever? Journalist Lisa Abend has been doing exactly that, arriving in cities she’s never researched, GPS turned off, without a hotel reservation or itinerary of any kind. The result isn’t chaos; it’s the kind of travel that actually surprises you. In this episode, Lisa makes a compelling case for leaving the phone out of the travel process.

Lisa Abend is a Copenhagen-based journalist and former Time magazine correspondent who covers food, culture, and travel across Europe. She is the creator of The Unplugged Traveler, a Substack newsletter in which she visits a new European city each month without internet access, a booked hotel, or a plan, and writes about what she finds.

Transcript

Katherine LaGrave: So I’m a planner with a capital P for years. My idea of a travel good time was a trip that had every element planned from the instant I left my front door to the moment I reentered it. I had as much appetite for spontaneity as I do arguing over politics at Thanksgiving, which is to say. Not much. But recently I started to realize that all that preparing, scheduling, and organizing can also be restrictive, which is not a surprise to you.

Go with the flow types, I’m sure. I’m Katherine LaGrave and this week on Unpacked, we’re exploring what it’s like to travel completely unplugged. Yes, you heard me correctly. And our guest is literally writing all about it. Lisa Abend has been reporting on travel for decades as a freelancer and contributing writer for Afar.

Over the years, she has witnessed seismic shifts in the way the internet has changed how we travel. So in April, 2024, she started a project called The Unplugged Traveler that documents what it’s like to explore Europe without the internet, and I got to talk to her all about it. So in this episode, you’ll hear why she chooses to travel this way and what you and I can learn from adopting some of her methods such as randomly walking up to people and asking where to get good ragù.

Hi, Lisa. So nice to be speaking with you again and this time about a topic close to your heart.

Lisa Abend: I am so glad to be back.

Katherine: Yeah. So we’re speaking today about Unplugged Travel, but I’d love to go back, back, back in time. Um, I think what, what’s, what’s your first travel memory?

Lisa: Well, I guess with my family, we used to live, we lived in Atlanta and so we would take long car drives to Florida, to Disneyland.

I have that, a very long car drive to Disney World in memory as a first trip, but then I started traveling on my own while I was still in college. The school that I went to. Had a winter term where we had to spend the month of January doing something that was a learning experience in some way. And because I was doing so poorly in Spanish, my Spanish professor suggested that I spend some time in Spain, and this would’ve been in my sophomore year of college.

And so that was my very first trip abroad, was to Madrid in January. And it was definitely an an. Eye-opening experience.

Katherine: Wow. I hope you’ve gone back to that college professor and been like, and now I’m fluent in Spanish.

Lisa: I did. Years later, we got to connect again and I got to thank her for, even though she nearly gave me a C in Spanish, it was the best advice that I might have ever gotten from school.

Katherine: Yeah, that sounds like it really worked out. So you’ve been traveling for a long time and. Do you remember beginning to use. The internet for travel, like what that switch felt like was there, is, is there a moment that you remember, I guess, researching something or, or using it in a way that you hadn’t been able to use it for travel planning before?

Lisa: Hmm. I mean, certainly. My first experience, probably like most people, was in, in booking tickets. I remember using Orbitz and being very excited that I could actually compare, uh, prices myself and didn’t have to just call an airline or go to a travel agent. And then for research, uh, you know, in the. Early part of this century, I actually moved to Spain and at that point I was starting to work as a journalist and by then I feel like, you know, all research was online and so it just felt like a piece of the general reporting that I was doing that I, you know, I would have to travel someplace to do an interview or report a story and.

It just all seemed kind of seamless at that point.

Katherine: Yeah, it certainly changed a lot about the ways in which we communicate and set things up and move through the world. And that. That brings me to your newsletter, the Unplugged Traveler, which is on Substack, and in an intro there, you write, I’m keenly aware of how much the internet makes possible, especially when it comes to travel, yet I’m also aware of how much it has taken away.

What do you mean by that?

Lisa: A few things. One. You know, you asked when I first started using the internet to help with travel, but I have a very clear memory of the time before that and what it was like. You know, when I was a student and backpacking around Europe, to just show up in a place, you know, with your Eurail pass and try and find a place to stay, try and find a place to eat with, with very little to go on and.

I have this memory of that as just feeling, so like the sense of discovery and freedom being so intense at that point. And of course I was new to travel and so that was also part of it, but. I think at the very core was a desire to tap back into that sense of, of possibility that I think had been lost.

But other things, you know, I, I write a lot about overt tourism. And it’s very clear that there’s a direct relationship between social media and crowds of people who show up on, say, a tiny street in a village in France, because they saw it on Instagram and it looks very charming. And now the people who actually live on that street, in those charming houses.

Are trying, you know, can’t get through their door because so many people there’re opposing for, for selfies. And that is something that’s happening all over the world where people try to recreate or drawn by something that they’ve seen on Instagram or seen on TikTok and just flood a place that isn’t, that in no way can handle that many people.

And then I think there’s also just a desire to recapture. Serendipity that so many of us, because we can subscribe to anything online. We can pass around. We email each other lists or curated lists on social media of the 10 best gelato in Florence that you have to go to, or if you go to Tokyo and you don’t eat ramen in this one place, have you really even been? And it just felt like so much travel now had been stripped of the serendipity of it, that it was so overly preplanned because there was so much information out there. There was no longer any sense of, I, it felt to me like the chances of making your own discoveries and. And even of, of getting lost had been eradicated. And so that was something I was hoping to try to try and put back in there.

Katherine: Mm-hmm. And it seems like there is really an appetite for and a return to that in a way, in large part because of this inundation or like immersion in the digital world and in social media.

I remember it, it brought to mind an analogy a professor of mine made in grad school and she said, imagine if. The magazine was invented after the iPad, like how much you would appreciate it and how differently you’d think about it. And in a way, I’m drawing a line between that to, to now. Right. It, it makes you appreciate even more the serendipity that you’re talking about because it does feel rarer to me.

Lisa: Yes. It’s very interesting to me to see the difference in response from people who are old enough. To have traveled before the internet because inevitably they’ll say, oh, that’s what it was like when I was in college and I remember turning up in this town and having X, Y, and Z happen to me. And then for younger generations who haven’t had that, there’s definitely interest, but there’s also a lot more fear, uh, which is surprising to me.

I’ve had so many people say to me, oh, you’re so brave. I could never do this. And it’s just. It’s never occurred to me that it was, that, that, that it was in any way, especially dangerous, but I think it, it’s just a sign of. How much we rely on our phones for, for all kinds of, of security, including social security, that the, the possibility of serendipity can sometimes feel almost threatening to people.

Katherine: Hmm. Yeah, that’s such an interesting point about. Familiarity and ease with traveling phone free. And actually, we should, we should, I should give you an option here for, for readers. For listeners who aren’t familiar with the premise of, of your newsletter, share a little bit about it. Sure. And how it came about.

Lisa: Well, the way that it came about is actually because, um, many editors, including, maybe not, I don’t think it was you, I don’t think it was you, but including a FAR magazine,

Katherine: good Recovery,

Lisa: um Yep. Turned down, uh, a pitch I had because in part it was, you know, I did envision this originally as, as a column where I would do this thing where I would each whatever month or however long.

I would go to a place to me that was new and that. About which I had done no research and I would travel entirely without the internet. So that would mean obviously no Googling, no Airbnb, no GPS maps while I was on the ground. No online list of recommendations. Um, and also no scrolling as a way to.

Protect myself against boredom or be feeling socially awkward or something like that. And so I had originally pitched this as a column and didn’t get any traction with that, so I just decided to to do it on my own and started as a substack.

Katherine: So how do you consider the tension between going someplace?

Without any information and I guess respect and consideration and awareness of a place as well. Right.

Lisa: No, I think it’s a, it’s a great question and it’s interesting to me that no one’s ever asked me about it before, but of course, you know, as a journalist, it’s who covers. International news and events, it’s something that you get accused of all the time and you have to be really sensitive to of, of parachuting in, where you’re just dropped, as you say, into a new context and you don’t really have the greater understanding.

You have to try and learn as quickly as possible, and I think in the, in the travel situation, it is something that. I’m, I’m very aware of maybe because I’ve had that background as a journalist, that I’m, I’m, I’m always acutely aware that I’m just having this teeny, tiny little slice of an experience and that in no way does it represent the whole of a place and what I’ve.

I definitely have had to consciously give up the need, uh, to try and make any kind of comprehensive statement, any kind of generalization. I’m just going off of my immediate. Experience and that does involve sometimes some FOMO as well. You know, when I get home and I realize that I’ve missed the most in like the one thing that a particular place is really known for, and I just didn’t happen to come across it, but I’m, I do try to frame what I’m writing very carefully as.

A reflection of my limited experience in a place and not so much an attempt to define the place as a whole.

Katherine: Mm-hmm. And so you’re traveling somewhere once a month. Let’s talk logistics. How do you decide where to go?

Lisa: Well, to be completely honest, I usually go on the Skyscanner site and you can choose.

Everywhere from your, as your destination, and I see what the prices are like. I be, you know, I’ve limited myself to Europe. I’m based in Copenhagen, so, so far I’ve limited myself to this continent and. Price, honestly, has been a major component of how I decide, but I am also, uh, beyond that, you know, my own criteria.

It has to be a place that I’ve never been before and about which I. I don’t have the kind of knowledge that would really change my experience there. So a classic example is Bergen in Norway, which I would really like to go to because I’ve heard it’s beautiful, but because I write about food, especially in the Nordic countries, I already know a bunch of restaurants there, and so it feels like.

Or I know of them having never having actually been there, and it feels like it would ruin the experience. It, um, it wouldn’t be fair for me to go there since I would already know where to eat. So it’s really that. And then beyond that. I do find myself drawn to, you know, what might be considered second cities.

You know, not necessarily the, the capital, just because it oftentimes it feels like those places they don’t care so much about. Tourists, like, it’s almost as if they’re not really trying to woo tourists in the same way as a place like, you know, Florence or Barcelona is, in some ways it’s, it, it feels easier to have a different kind of experience there.

Katherine: Mm-hmm. So you go to Skyscanner, you decide that you’re going to Vilnius, I’m just picking a city at random. Then I’m so curious about the steps that you take. Walk me through a Vilnius trip.

Lisa: Okay. I will walk you through Vilnius. Although I’ve been to Vilnius in real life. Okay. So I can never use it as an unplugged bubble.

Um, I do allow myself, the one online thing I do is buy the ticket because I really cannot bear to sit through a call center talking to, mm-hmm. To somebody to buy the ticket. So I buy the ticket online and then that’s pretty much it. I get on the plane, I get off in the airport, or sometimes by train. Um, and usually the,

Katherine: and again, all all like way finding at the airport.

Lisa: Yes. So usually, you know, my first stop is to try and see if there’s a tourist office at the airport or train station. Those have been disappearing as well. Mostly because people don’t need them anymore because they have their phones.

Then I figure out how to get into the center of the city and, you know, sometimes it means asking people. Sometimes it means reading signs, you know, sometimes it’s quite obvious. And then I take public transportation to the center of the city. And get out and start walking around. And that’s pretty much it. Um, I try and time it so that I land while there’s still daylight.

That hasn’t always worked, but it usually I’ve, it’s something that I’m able to, to do. And then depending on how much daylight there is, I either look, I either look for a hotel immediately or I just try and get my bearings first.

Katherine: Oh, so you have, you’ve not found a hotel yet? Oh, I’m stressed.

Lisa: I know for a lot of people, that is very stressful. And, and I have to say, like the, the first couple of times I did it, it was very stressful for me too, especially the first time I did it was Hamburg. And for some reason I just like, I don’t know where I, I just couldn’t find any hotels. Like, not like, it wasn’t like they were too expensive or all books or like for whatever, whatever reason there were none.

And I did start to get a little nervous, but I did find one and, yeah. You know, once you get used to it, it’s really much less stressful than you might imagine. You know, it’s happened a few times where I’ve had to go to several places because all of them have, the previous ones have been booked. It’s happened that, you know, maybe I am in town for three nights and I can only stay in the hotel that I land in for one night because they’re booked the other two nights.

Although it does usually turn out. Hotels get a lot of cancellations and I find that if I’m in the door once, I’m usually in for the whole time, something will come up. I do, you know, unless this is like the 10th hotel that I’ve gone to and I’m just glad to have a room.

I do usually ask to see it beforehand, and that’s something that I think can feel weird. But hotels are actually used to it and they’re usually, and they’re perfectly fine with you going to look at the room and then coming down and saying, yeah, that looks great.

Katherine: That’s a great tip. And then, so you walk around. Do you speak to someone at the hotel for recommendations about what to do? Or do you really sort of just hit the street and see where it takes you?

Lisa: It depends on the hotel, right? Because oftentimes they’re not the best reference, especially for things like. Restaurants because they’re sending everybody to the same place and they’re often just recommending a place that they think tourists will like.

But I do usually have a conversation with the receptionist if I can. And over time, you know, sort of have a, a slightly deeper conversations so that you have the opportunity. To maybe probe a little deeper beyond their initial, what they tell everybody. I go to this one place, which, you know, nine times outta 10 will turn out to be a huge tourist trap.

So I do do that. But then yeah, I just kind of start. Walking and I try and, you know, sometimes I do it in sort of concentric circles so that I can get a sense of how, where the place I am fits into the larger pattern of the city. And sometimes I just like head in one direction until I run out of something.

Interesting. You’ll look at and then, and then pick another direction.

Katherine: Yes. Interesting. You write a lot about serendipity. What’s one moment of serendipity that you still think about or or want to share?

Lisa: The biggest moment, and honestly, it still feels. Powerfully mysterious to me, has to do with the trip I took in the Cotswolds.

There’s a trail called the Cotswold Way. You can hike it in seven or eight days, and I set out to do the whole trail, and this coincided with my birthday, and the trip was meant to be, it was gonna be an unplugged trip that I was taking with a friend as kind of like a birthday present to myself. The friend had a family emergency and she had to cancel at the last minute, and I just decided, you know what? I’m gonna do it myself anyway.

And this was a trip in which many things went wrong, including, this was actually the place where I’ve had probably the most difficulty with, with hotels because, you know, you’re, you’re walking, uh, town to town, village to village, and many of them have very few accommodations, if any, and those accommodations are often bed and breakfasts. And I just assumed I would get into a town and there would be signs for these bed and breakfasts, but because they’re in actual people’s homes, many of them don’t have any signs. And so I would get there and it would appear that there was absolutely no place to stay. And so I would have to walk on several miles to the next town. So that was one of the first things that that went wrong. And then there was terrible, like actually life threatening floods, uh, from the rain that was so torrential. And I got lost a gazillion times and at some point, I think I was about three or four days into this, I just thought, you know, this, this isn’t fun. Maybe I should just go home.

And the thing that that actually resolved that for me was, uh, as I’m, I’m considering this question of whether I wanna pull the plug on the trip or not, my boots literally dissolve and the sole of my hiking boot comes clean off and I was like, okay, that’s a message.

Anyway, after that happened, I have about a mile from where that happens into the nearest town. I’m hobbling into town with it and as I, as I come to the edge of the town, I pass a couple going in the opposite way and they kind of smirk at me in a way that I found real. I thought they just were like laughing at how ridiculous I looked because I was like, you know, hobbling along on these uneven shoes.

So I was kind of, I noticed them and I was kind of annoyed and I kept going. Got into the town there were there, looked to be two roads in and I started down the one on the left and I just went a little, uh, just probably a hundred meters or so and thought, Ugh, this looks kind of boring. And I turned around and went back to the other one.

And I was doing that, that same couple had come back and they were, and we kind of coincided and it was that weirdly kind of awkward thing where you find yourself walking side by side, um, next to people on the street. So I kind of walk a little faster and I pull in front of them and I hear them talking to a woman who has come out of her home and that woman, for some reason, the woman and the couple says to the lady who has come out of her house, it’s his birthday. And I stopped and turned around and said, it’s, it’s my birthday, ‘cause it was my actual birthday then. And we like just kind of like laughed over that and walked into town together. We went into the one cafe in this town and the woman and the couple told the waitress there that it was both of our birthdays and everyone in the cafe sang happy birthday to us. And I, when I think about that, I mean, I was feeling a little sorry for myself up until that point, and when I think about all of the coincidences that had to happen, that I had to turn around from the street that I was on and end up right next to them so I could hear this woman, for some reason, tell a stranger that her husband’s, it was her husband’s birthday, and I could be in the proximity to hear that. It just blew my mind and it actually made me feel like, it made me feel like the universe was looking out for me.

Katherine: When you do find yourself in those places that you’re pretty confident would be recommended, or even you referenced that charming street in France as an example earlier, do you turn away from those places? Like do you try and actively not follow crowds? What’s your approach to that?

Lisa: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really important to try and read the crowd because you know, of course, like sometimes locals wait in line too, and, and the mere fact of a line, you know, travelers can have good taste. It doesn’t mean that a place is necessarily bad.

But I am, because I’m trying to, to capture something that, you know, authentic is such a tired word and a problematic word, but because I am trying to get away from the kinds of experiences that are, are so highly determined through, through social media or, or through the internet, um, I do try and yeah, maybe avoid that. I remember being in Bologna, for example. Bologna is such an amazing city to eat in, but that has become its primary tourist draw. And so, you know, there are so many, uh, trattorie, osterie or gelato places or pizzerias where there’s a line of what are clearly tourists. Um, and I, I do turn away from those, and instead, like in Bologna, I just started randomly going up to people on the street and asking them where they thought I should go for a good ragù.

And I, and it was great because, you know, it’s Bologna. They take this question very seriously. Nobody at all thought, you know, who’s this crazy woman coming up to ask me, they, they were, they appreciated the. The care with which I was approaching this question, every single one of them had a different restaurant to recommend. So that was also, you know, that’s also a good reminder that there is no best of anything pieces that I myself have written. You know, we, we love lists, but the idea that there’s a best of anything that is so subjective as taste and experience is a little silly to me. And it’s, it’s good to sometimes remind yourself of that.

Katherine: So true. So what about difficulties? You spoke a little bit about it before, but you know, so many of us, myself included, have an urge, which can be overcome of course, but an urge to reach for our phone when something is wrong. Yeah. Or we have a question and how, how do you solve for that?

Lisa: Sometimes it involves thinking a little creatively. On my very first trip, the same one in which I couldn’t find a hotel.

Katherine: Hamburg.

Lisa: Yeah. Hamburg, poor Hamburg. It was actually Easter.

Katherine: Oh.

Lisa: I went to Easter Mass. Um, and at midnight. So it’s midnight mass. And then was. Trying to find my way back to the hotel afterwards and I got lost and you know, it’s 1:30 in the morning and there’s not a lot of people out. And I also didn’t feel great about going up to people at that hour, ‘cause I thought like, oh, that just makes me look really vulnerable to say, uh, by the way, I’m lost. So, you know, I circled for a while and I was starting to get quite panicked. And then I just remembered I could get in a taxi. And so I actually walked toward a taxi and I was, I was so relieved at having found this sort of creative solution. Um, and that actually as I walked up to the taxi, I saw a landmark that I had recognized from earlier in the day, and that. Told me that I was actually quite close to my hotel and I didn’t need to take the taxi.

Um, but that kind of thing obviously can help for other things, I mean, knock on wood, because you know, I’m sure, I’m sure that other things will go wrong in the future. So far it has not, I’ve never not been able to find a place to stay, but I do have a backup plan. If it happens, you know, I go to the train station and get on a train to someplace nearby and try my luck there.

Or you know, you go into a pub and those people, because they’re so plugged in, they can usually find you a room somewhere. That’s always been my experience, so I try and, you know, think about alternatives that way.

The other thing, I think that’s really important. Um, is to allow room for less than perfect experiences. I, I think that part of what, you know, having all of this information in our pockets has, has done for us is, has made, has reduced our tolerance for negative experiences. You know, you don’t, you’ve got so many meals in a place and you, you come armed with your list, maybe even with the bookings of every place you’re going to eat. And because you don’t want to, you know, quote unquote waste a meal or you, you know, the same with a place to stay or you, you’ve got a huge, you know, list of sites that you have to knock off.

And I think sometimes we have this anxiety that if we don’t do the things that we see on those lists or on Instagram, that somehow we’re not fully experiencing a place or we’re wasting our time there. And I mean, you know, Katherine, you’re a very experienced travel writer. You know this as well as I do. Mm-hmm. Some of the best stories are when things go wrong. And so I think leaving yourself open to having a bad experience or a less than great experience can be quite freeing.

Katherine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we get into that, right, with these preset expectations of what we want from a trip. And then to your point, it can feel disappointing or frustrating when we don’t have what we imagine those experiences to be.

Lisa: Yes.

Katherine: So it is freeing in a way to have fewer, less on a list and more just an intention kind of what do I want to experience from this trip? Or how do I wanna feel, or what do I wanna learn, I feel like is always a good way in.

Lisa: Exactly. I’ve realized that at the beginning I had some, you know, I, I had some nerves around some of the very questions that you’re asking, but at this point, having done it now nearly two dozen times, I actually find it so profoundly relaxing. I can’t really explain it, but to get to a place with no itinerary and no plans and not be haunted by, you know, the notifications going off on your phone and just try and, I mean, it, it’s kind of like, it sounds ridiculous, but it’s almost like a form of meditation because it’s all about being present. You’re just there and who knows what will happen.

Katherine: All of these things. There are points of information, and by doing it this way, you become, better is not the word, but you become more aware of who you are as a traveler and you, you know, can, can strengthen your, as you said, as assessing a crowd. You can look at a place and you can be better able to make judgements about what will and won’t work for you in terms of restaurants and attractions, which you wouldn’t be doing if you had a list based on what other people are telling you to do.

Lisa: Yes. I mean, one thing, probably the thing that I was most anxious about early on, was whether I would be able to find a story, because as travel writers, one of the first things we learned is that a place is not a story, right? You have to find a way into it. And I knew that, you know, that the novelty of landing in a place without, without any plans or having done any research or access to the internet would only get me so far in terms of a story. And so, you know, I did have those doubts, would I be able to find one, and now they’re just gone because, I mean, I don’t wanna jinx anything again, but it just always happens.

And I think it’s because if you travel this way, you become more open to your surroundings and to the place, and you’re not, for me, I find I’m not thinking so much about working my way down that checklist of things. I’m not thinking at all about working my way down that checklist of things I have to see. I’m just trying to stay open until that story lands on me. That’s really the way it feels. But it, as a result, it means, you know, I think that openness, it certainly. It means I’m more proactive in talking to people. You know, I’m looking for those opportunities where I might be able to connect with people on a more in-depth way.

If I go to a restaurant here by myself at home, I’m gonna usually try and find some quiet corner table by myself so I can read my book and not talk to anybody and just have a quiet dinner, right? But I don’t do that when I’m. When I’m traveling this way, I, I choose to, you know, to squeeze myself in, in between those two tables that are full with people, ‘cause I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to get a, a conversation out of it and that I’ll probably learn something great as a result.

Katherine: So how has this approach, unplugged travel, changed the way that you travel at large?

Lisa: Hmm. I’d be lying if I didn’t say like, there are times on my normal traveling, especially when I’m traveling for a story for a publication where I like remember that I can use my phone and there is a bit of relief there. It’s like, ah, yes, great.

Katherine: It’s like duct taped in your bag.

Lisa: Exactly. It’s like, ah, great. But it, it’s not just travel, it’s daily life. You know, if I’m on the metro, I’m much more likely not to pull my phone out. I, I find it easier to resist the urge to grab my phone because I’m bored, or you walk into a party where you don’t know a lot of people, or you are waiting in line and feeling a little awkward or something. It’s much easier now for me to resist the urge to kind of grab my phone and hide behind that, and to just try and stay present in my surroundings wherever I am.

Katherine: I love that. So a phone, the internet, they can help. It can be helpful, right?

Lisa: Absolutely.

Katherine: It can certainly be helpful when we consider accessibility and moving around a place. And so I guess a question I have for you is, what’s your advice for people trying to do some bit of unplugged travel? Hmm? Like what tips and tricks do you have for people, for all types of travelers>

Lisa: For someone who wants to try it and who, you know, feels a little nervous about it or is worried about accessibility, you can do it at home almost. You know, you can go to the town next to you or take a train ride for a couple of hours and get off somewhere and you don’t have to, I generally spend probably three or four days in a destination for the newsletter and I’d love to to spend more, but I’m limited by, by finances. But you can do it for an afternoon, just show up somewhere and go around for an afternoon and that was, it is easier in smaller places up until this point.

Most of the places I had been had been pretty major cities, but then I went to a town in Spain called, I mean, I had chosen it because, because I used to live in Spain and had traveled so much there, I’d pretty much been to all of the big cities. So this was like a smaller one that was about 50,000 people went more town than city and it was great.

It was the kind of size where there was a decent amount of stuff to do. You weren’t gonna like go through it all in an hour or so, but it was small enough that if you spent more than a day there, you’d keep running into the same people, which made it much easier to talk to them. And they noticed me too because, you know, it was much clearer that I was not from there. And so in terms of connecting with people, finding a smaller size place can be, I’ve found it can be a great way of doing that.

Katherine: Travel small. And consider the size of place as well for getting started. So where’s your next trip?

Lisa: Well, the next place I’m writing about I’ve already been to, which was Cork in Ireland. I was there a couple of weeks ago, so I’m looking forward to writing that one up. And then after that I can’t believe I’m coming up on two years of this newsletter and soon after I started, in fact, it was on that trip to Bologna that I mentioned, a dear friend of mine from from college, she goes to, uh, Italy each year in the springtime. And so we met up there and then they were, she and her partner were driving, they have a wine shop and so they go and visit all of the winemakers that they sell. They were driving actually through Greece, and so we met in Thessaloniki, and this year we are going to meet in Marseille ‘cause I’ve never been there. And so that will be my next trip. And that’s coming up, uh, before the end of the month.

Katherine: Very fun. And so do your friends also get instructions?

Lisa: Yes.

Katherine: Don’t look at things.

Lisa: Exactly. They have to be, and they’ve been great sports about it. It’s gotta be people who are willing to play by the rules.

Katherine: Fun. I love it. OK. Two years in, what’s been your biggest takeaway from traveling this way?

Lisa: I think it is just the reminder to, to, to stay open, to experience and that when you do that, all kinds of great things happen. It just repeats. It’s happened so many times when these unexpected connections or stories just turn out to be there if you if you’re open to them.

Katherine: Okay, well that seems like a great place to end, so thank you for hopping on to chat.

Lisa: Thank you.

Katherine: And that brings us to the end of Unplugged Travel with Lisa Abend. In the show notes, you’ll find a link to Lisa’s newsletter and to her social media handle. Thank you for listening to Unpacked. I’m Katherine LaGrave, and until next time, keep exploring and remember to always let fellow travelers know when it’s your birthday, you never know what sort of song you might get.