Whether revealing that coleslaw is actually Dutch or explaining how enslaved African Americans’ “wok hand” shaped Southern cuisine, in this episode of Travel Tales by Afar, Dr. Jessica B. Harris shatters everything you thought you knew about American food. The renowned food historian and author behind the book (and Netflix hit) High on the Hog introduces us to America’s culinary “braid"—three cultural strands woven together over centuries to create what we eat today.
Transcript
Aislyn Greene, host: I am Aislyn Greene, and welcome to Travel Tales by Afar. Today I’m talking with someone I’ve long admired, a woman who sits—and eats and writes—at the intersection of food, travel, and history. Her name is Dr. Jessica B. Harris, and she’s the brilliant mind behind multiple books, including High on the Hog, which you may know as the hit Netflix series.
Dr. Harris has a new book out now called Braided Heritage: Recipes and Stories on the Origin of American Cuisine. It’s a rich, gorgeous, delicious dive into the many strands that are still woven into what we eat today, at least in the United States.
So, from her couch in Brooklyn, with one of her Siamese cats wandering by, Dr. Harris shared the inspiration for the book, her earliest childhood travel memories, and the surprising twists and turns of American culinary history—you’ll never believe where coleslaw came from.
Well, Dr. Jessica B. Harris, welcome to Travel Tales. Thanks so much for being here today.
Dr. Jessica B. Harris: Thank you for having me.
Aislyn: And it does feel like an interesting time to be talking about a cookbook, about the origin of American cooking, because it’s a rather difficult time in our country. So what inspired you to tackle this, and how has your relationship to the book and to the stories within it changed over the course of writing it?
Dr. Harris: It’s a long and somewhat complicated story, but in, in very brief compass—a lovely geographic term—I was asked to do a proposal for what became this book based on a speech that I gave in Natchez, Mississippi, over a decade ago, which I talked about, um, the sort of tripartite origin story of the country. You may be old enough to remember a TV show called Schoolhouse Rock!.
Aislyn: I do remember that show. Yes.
Dr. Harris: They had a song called “Three Is a Magic Number,” and so that was my inspiration for the speech and in turn became my inspiration for the book because, in fact, if you look at the origin story, there are three different strands involved: the people who were here, the Native people, the Indigenous people, the American Indians; the Europeans who arrived, specifically the Spanish, the British, the Dutch, and the French, in order, pretty much of arrival; and then the enslaved Africans who were kidnapped and brought. And if you look at that as three different strands of not only culture, but three different strands of culinary cultures, you get the idea.
Aislyn: And in the book you refer to that as the “American braid,” which is lovely. How would you define American cuisine?
Dr. Harris: Oh goodness. At this moment in time, there is no defining it. The bottom line is we’re a braid, we are a culinary reference, but not intended. We are Heinz 57 varieties. You know, so much goes into what goes then onto the American plate that at this particular moment, you know, entering—well, not quite, entering—midpoint of the third decade of the 21st century, it’s hard to dissect because there’s so many influences. That original braid has now been expanded and just blown up, in a way.
Aislyn: Yeah, absolutely. And then there’s these new threads almost that get pulled out or highlighted. One of your sections of the book is devoted to Native peoples, and you do spotlight chef Sean Sherman, who, I feel like . . . in recent years, Native cuisine has been so spotlighted in a different way, or kind of raised to the consciousness.
Dr. Harris: Or talked about. Not so much spotlighted—just that nobody ever really thought about it until people . . . I mean, I’m sure that Native people thought about it and ate it and all of the rest of that, but the rest of the world wasn’t really looking at it as such. But we’ve been, general[ly] speaking, we, the prevailing public, has been ignorant of a lot of the parts of the braid, if you look at it as such.
I literally had lunch with Chef Sean, and I love his, his, uh, way of referring him, to himself, as the Sioux Chef, S-I-O-U-X. So that was kind of wonderful, and we got to talk about this whole notion of a braid and his, his work, which specifically works at decolonizing, as he puts it, American food, native American food. He talks about removing the things that would not have been here but for contact with other people. So pigs are removed, beef is removed, wheat is removed, sugar is removed, and so you have a cuisine that is absolutely delicious. I had lunch at Owamni. It was just an extraordinary meal. And then you think, Wow. This is interesting. How did this happen? What? Why have we not thought about this?
Aislyn: Right. Do you think that his work has been picked up by other chefs? Do you think there’s some momentum building in this idea of decolonizing food?
Dr. Harris: I can’t say this chef, that chef, or the other chef is doing it. Sure. But he is certainly at the forefront of, uh, what I suspect is the culinary, if not revolution, at least movement among Native peoples, and part of the story that he tells is one of his culinary epiphanies came in Mexico. So it’s not just a United States-ian thing, it’s a hemispheric thing.
Aislyn: It’s interesting because I was in Albuquerque, New Mexico, last year, and I toured the Indian Pueblo [Cultural] Center there, and coming out of COVID, they put a lot of emphasis on food sovereignty and building this facility that basically could help support Native farmers throughout the, you know, state, New Mexico, Arizona. And it was so interesting to see that the pandemic actually pushed some big action in that space. It was, it was inspiring. So maybe part of that movement.
Dr. Harris: I mean, I think what has happened also with the pandemic is while there were all kinds of, you know, DoorDashes and Uber Eats and people ordering out, people also got back to cooking, not just sourdough starters and bread, but when they’re getting back to cooking, I think they are looking at developing and thinking about what they cook and cooking in a much more intentional manner.
Aislyn: Well, one of the other cuisines that you noted in the book was Dutch, the Dutch influence on American cuisine, and you said that the Dutch hide in plain sight in American cuisine.
So I’m curious to know what surprised you and if you could share a few examples.
Dr. Harris: I mean, we don’t really, well, we don’t think about the Dutch at all when we talk about our narrative. We may have a side mention of New Amsterdam and, you know, Peter Stuyvesant or something like that, but we don’t talk about the Dutch, and they were a large swath of the middle Atlantic. Um, they also had an extraordinary trading empire. That was, you know, the, the monolithic trading company for Europe for that, you know, much, much time, a great deal of time. Um, and what we don’t think about are the things that we got from the Dutch, and I, I said Dutch, it may be a bit of a misnomer, but it was New Amsterdam. They were the Dutch, but it was the low countries, the nether lands, you know, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, the Benelux countries, if you will. And from them we got cookies. Who knew?
Aislyn: Who knew?
Dr. Harris: You know, where would we be without our cookies? Waffles! I remember when the Belgian waffles got introduced at the 1964 World’s Fair. People just went nuts, you know, about that. Arguably, pancakes, and that’s an arguably because they are certainly crepes in France and things of that—pancakes, in fact, in England. And then the one that blew me completely out of the water is coleslaw.
Aislyn: That was a surprise.
Dr. Harris: It’s from the Dutch koolsla, which means “cabbage salad.”
Aislyn: And when would you say that was introduced or popularized? Did you determine that?
Dr. Harris: I didn’t, but I can tell you who probably has, and you can be in touch with her. That’s the historian that I spoke with, whose name is Peter Rose, and it goes back—it’s not something that would have happened in the 20th century or even the 19th century. It goes back.
Aislyn: That was a real shocker. I mean, where would we be without cookies and coleslaw? Truly, nowhere good.
Dr. Harris: At this time of the year, we’re entering the coleslaw season, so.
Aislyn: Well, the final section of the book is on African American culinary history, and I, I did find it particularly poignant and, you know, very nuanced. And I’m gonna read a long quote from you if you don’t mind. So you write, “I was struck by a multiplicity of threads that went into the African American experience. We did with food what we have done with almost everything else that we touch: We improvised. And through that improvisation, we created something else, something different, something better, something truly American.”
And then you went on to share some of the stories of those, the untold stories of those food contributions. So, could you tell us a little bit more about those contributions and what you discovered in your research that surprised you?
Dr. Harris: I mean, I think that the overarching presence, if you will, of African American hands in the pots of America is something that is only now beginning to be examined and analyzed, probably.
I think the idea . . . well, OK, let me back up and say the Chinese—I learned from Grace Young—have a concept called the “wok hand,” and it is the hand of the cook in the cooking pot. It’s the hand that means when you give your recipe to someone else and they serve it to you, it never quite tastes like it does when you make it. That’s the ineffable thing. That recipe can’t contain that wok hand, that hand of the cook, the chef in the pot.
Now, if you consider the number of African Americans who were enslaved and, after enslavement, who worked in the kitchens of others for not decades, but centuries, then you see that there is this kind of an underpinning of much of American food. It’s the thing that means that Southern food, albeit maybe in some ways descended from the British, doesn’t taste British.
Aislyn: Are there a few examples of foods or dishes that you hadn’t connected previously to that history?
Dr. Harris: Oh, we could talk about barbecue. But barbecue is what happens in some ways when Africa comes together with, uh, with Europe, because yeah, the, there were beef cattle certainly in western Africa above the tsetse-fly zone. But, um, pigs are native to Europe, so all of those barbecued ribs and things are, again, a part of a different braid. So there’s a lot of, you know—no food is really, it’s only x. Most foods have some form of, of braiding or some form of mixing going into them.
Aislyn: Well, did you see this book in any way as an extension of your show, High on the Hog, like, or pulling what you learned, what you documented in that show?
Dr. Harris: Everything that I do is cumulative. I couldn’t have written Braided Heritage without having written High on the Hog.
Probably could have, but it would be a very different book. So the idea is to look at the, the various different ways that things kind of grow, I guess like a coral reef, where things just accrete and add to and add to and add to. So, I mean, I think that’s what happens. The interesting, perhaps interesting to others, um, but absolutely organic thing for me was not just working with African Americans, but stretching out and looking at and talking to friends who were Native American and friends who were European American about their dishes. And so that’s kind of probably the thing that was different.
Aislyn: I see. OK. And one of the things that’s so powerful in the book are those personal stories. You know, these people that you’re highlighting. Did you travel much to report and research this?
Dr. Harris: I—horribly to say for Afar—no, I didn’t go afar. Uh, they were all friends, and we talked over the phone. In fact, some of the interviewing was even done over COVID, so travel wasn’t really gonna happen an awful lot. But I didn’t get to, no, I didn’t get to see many of them.
Aislyn: Yeah. But, I mean, you are such a traveler that, like you said, you know, this is kind of built up over the years. So I’d love to kind of transition into your, your travel life. Have you always been drawn to, like, explore and grow and ask questions?
Dr. Harris: Well, um, I am the first non-UN child to go to the United Nations International School.
Aislyn: Wow.
Dr. Harris: OK, so that explains travel. I was bugging my parents, apparently at the age of—and I went from pre-K through junior high—so somewhere along in, I guess kindergarten, first grade, it was like “Mommy . . .” And at the UN back then, I don’t know if they still do, but people used to have what they called home leave. And so every other year, my classmates, who were mainly the children of UN employees, would go home, and they’d come back with these tales.
And I wanted to go to Poland for the weekend, and I wanted to go to England for summer vacation, and I wanted to do all of this to the point that my parents finally broke down, and I guess I might have been seven or eight, maybe a little younger, [and] they took me to Canada for my first trip. ’Cause they, they [were like, “We gotta shut this kid up.” And so they took me to Canada.
And, equally, we lived fairly near what was then Idlewild Airport. And airports back then had observation decks. And, you know, on a Sunday we watched the planes take off, and I would come back, and according to my mom, I would say, “Next time I’m gonna bring my suitcase.” So I’ve always wanted to travel. It’s always been something, was part of what I wanted to do.
Aislyn: What do you think it was at that time? You know, as a kid, you probably couldn’t necessarily identify it, but what, what was that thirst within you, do you think?
Dr. Harris: Well, I think it was curiosity more than anything else.
I had all of these friends. One of my oldest friends in the world is a Shiite Brahman from Madras, India, Chennai. Now another one, actually, we call each other “first friend” because we’ve known each other since nursery school, almost; [she] lives in Wales. And if I go to London, she gets on, you know, planes and boats and trains [to] come see me.’ And so, uh, I think it’s just that connection.
Aislyn: Hmm. Yes. Yeah. Connection and curiosity. And it sounds like you had this exposure to other cultures and other ways of life at a very young age, which I think tends to kind of activate that curiosity, right?
Dr. Harris: Absolutely. Well, or, or fine-tune it.
Aislyn: Well, you said your parents took you to Canada to quote “shut you up.” So did it work? It sounds like maybe it just fed the fire.
Dr. Harris: No, no. It just, it just, you know, I, I then, probably, you know, felt a little bit placated, but, uh, you know, I’ve always been a traveler. I was a French major in college. I did a junior year in France. I lived with a French family, so that was another big aspect of travel.
I then did a graduate year. I have a degree from Université de Nance in “Nancy Francy.” I’ve lived in other cultures. My doctorate is on the French-speaking theater of Senegal. So I’ve lived there, and in the mid-’70s, I was the travel editor in Essence. To remind everybody, all of these things were done parallel to my full-time job, which was teaching.
Aislyn: Um, I know that France did have a big, it sounds like it had a big impact on you. What were those first experiences like for you, and what did they spark?
Dr. Harris: Oh goodness. Well, I went to France for the first time in 1962 with my parents. I am fortunate. I am unusual in that I, um, I have a history. I have, uh, a deep background in France. I was in school during my junior year, during the événements—well before and immediately following those student uprisings [in May 1968].
So that, it’s funny, I, I literally go back every year in January. And about 20 years into that—it’s now been almost, oh, probably 50 years, maybe plus 50, 20 years—and I went back and saw, reconnected with the family that I live with.
Aislyn: Oh, how was that?
Dr. Harris: It was great. Yeah. And we are very much in touch. I now have dinner with them on the night before I leave Paris every year. I know their children and their grandchildren. Some of their children have actually come and stayed with me in the States.
I am an only child, so they are, you know, they’re the family that I got, and, um, and over the years we’ve become closer. I only stayed at their house for something like maybe eight months at the most. But we are very close.
Aislyn: I mean, I feel like eight months in a study abroad can feel like the equivalent of two years elsewhere because it’s such a rich experience.
Dr. Harris: Oh, it’s intense, right?
Aislyn: It’s intense.
Dr. Harris: And particularly if you’re experiencing it in a different language.
Aislyn: I know, I remember I studied abroad in Rennes, studying in French, and I just remember, sometimes the fatigue of my brain, you know, after being—
Dr. Harris: It’s exhausting. And not only is it exhausting, it’s aggravating. Uh, there was a cat in the house. His name was Piscily, and I used to just get peeved beyond imagining because he could speak French and I couldn’t. But I got to the point where I began to dream in French, and it’s like, “Yeah, I got this now.”
Aislyn: Amazing. What else have you done in your long and varied career? [What are] the untold stories?
Dr. Harris: Oh, there are a lot of them. Some of them may show up in books, but, um, you know, there are probably three places that marked me, if you will. France, certainly one of them, and very early on. After France, I guess it would be western Africa, first Senegal. Then, uh, I have friends in both of those places.
Actually, my friends in Benin I originally met in Senegal because they were working in Senegal at that—but they are now my, my African family in a wonderful, wonderful way. And I know their kids, and their kids have come and stayed with me, and I know their grandkids. Their kids are a little younger, so there are not quite as many grandkids, but I’ve danced in a multiplicity of weddings kind of thing. So there was that.
The third place would be Salvador de Bahia de Todos Santos in Brazil. And again, there I’ve got friends. I have a picture that I keep at my bedside of my, um, Brazilian twin sister. We looked so much alike, but sometimes I can see pictures of her and go, “Oh, it’s Senia, it’s not me.”
Uh, you know, and strangely enough, we’ve aged with the same kind of body conformity; we hunch in the same way. It’s really quite extraordinary. And then my great, great glee was I got to introduce my Brazilian family to my—well, my Brazilian family, the, uh, the son in question has met my French family, and he and his mother have been in Benin and met my African family.
So it’s all been, you know, the circles are, are getting intertwined.
Aislyn: Would you say that you’re braiding them together?
Dr. Harris: I can say that. I was just thinking, Oh wait, that’s three places. Maybe it’s right.
Aislyn: We’ve talked about this at Afar, like this idea that different places maybe activate different sides of yourself.
Do you feel like there are certain different aspects of your life that come out [in these places]?
Dr. Harris: Absolutely. I think, well, I mean, I think different languages, more in the different places. Language forms what you can say and what you can’t say and how you can say it and how nuanced it is, or it isn’t. For example, to cut the first slice of a loaf or a terrine, you know the word, it’s entremet, and you’ve gotta say to cut the first slice in English.
Aislyn: Yes.
Dr. Harris: But in French it is not just a culinary term. On va entrement ce discussion [means] “We’re going to start, we’re going to cut the first slice of this discussion.” And so there are things that are, as I said, more nuanced. I think I am wittier in French than I am in English. I can flirt more in French than I can in English.
Aislyn: I, I did interview a language expert who had a similar thing, like she was like, I’m different in Spanish than I am in German, you know? I find that so fascinating.
Dr. Harris: Like that. What is that expression? I speak English to my accountant, French to [my] mistress, and German to my dog. You know, it’s like all of those different kinds of things.
Aislyn: Well, do you find that there’s a place in the world where you feel most at home given that you have lived in and visited so many different places?
Dr. Harris: I am profoundly a New Yorker. I am a native New Yorker. I was born and raised in New York City, went to high school on the subway. I think Paris, although I have not lived there in decades, I think it’s a place that I could live. And, and might actually, um, London, which hasn’t been mentioned, [is] interesting for its proximity to the world. I have a great number of friends in London. I’m actually a patron of something known as the Oxford Cultural Collective that does a lot of work. So I’ve spent a fair amount of time in London, but I, you know, I am—as my mother used to say—a citizen of the world. So . . .
Aislyn: What do you think that young Jessica would say if she saw you now?
Dr. Harris: Uh, keep going. Keep going. Keep taking that suitcase when you go to the airport.
Aislyn: Hmm, well, let’s bring it back to your metaphorical suitcase for a moment. Is there a recipe or maybe recipes in the book that feel the closest to you or maybe the most rooted in your own life?
Dr. Harris: Well, there’s my mother’s fried chicken, and that’s very much a recipe that’s close to me. But, equally, there is watermelon rind pickles that are summer, that are related, not to my mother, but to my maternal grandmother, who would prepare them, but equally to African American history because it was, pickling things was a way to, to make money. It was also a way to preserve things. The, what was for many years considered to be the first African American cookbook, [What Mrs. Fisher Knows about Old Southern Cooking]—a woman who wrote it was actually somebody who had made a little bit of money from selling pickles, her pickles.
Aislyn: Sounds delicious and perfect for these hot summer days that we’re about to embark on.
Dr. Harris: That we’re having!
Aislyn: Well, you’ve spent 50 years steeped in food and in travel. What’s next for you? What do you hope to do? Where do you hope to go?
Dr. Harris: It’s a secret, but it—one of them certainly involves travel. Stay tuned.
Aislyn: And in the meantime they can read Braided Heritage. What do you hope people will take away from this book?
Dr. Harris: I think reading the book will tell people a little bit about me, but it is not the book that’s revelatory in a way. Um, that one is called My Soul Looks Back, and that’s a whole ’nother ball game. That’s a memoir. But I think that Braided Heritage hopefully will make people think about our conjoined history. And how we are literally all together on the plate.
Aislyn: And that was Dr. Jessica B. Harris. Spoiler alert, her book ends with a recipe for apple pie, and it looks amazing. In the show notes, I’ve linked to Braided Heritage as well as many other books. You’ll also find links to several Afar stories about, and by, Dr. Harris, and a few other assorted surprises. See you next week.
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