Frommer vs. Frommer: First Family of Travel Disagrees About AFAR
This just proves that we really are the travel magazine with a difference.
Pauline and Arthur Frommer, daughter and father in that well-known travel family, had a lively disagreement on Sunday, August 23, about Afar’s approach to travel. Pauline likes it; Arthur not so much.
Here’s what happened: Pauline taped an interview with me last week for their Sunday radio show. We talked about Afar’s mission to help experiential travelers get beneath the surface and connect more deeply with a place and its people. We discussed several of the stories in the premier issue, including Todd Pitock’s journey to find authentic Berber culture in Morocco’s Anti-Atlas mountains, Sam Fromartz’s apprenticeship with a Paris baker, and Lisa Katayama’s inside look at Tokyo’s “maid café” culture. I described how we make sure to include resources with each story to help readers take a similar kind of trip—outfitters in Morocco, cooking classes in Paris, English-language tours of Tokyo’s fantasy-play cafés.
Then, on the live portion of the show after the interview aired, Arthur declared that Afar is “an absurd magazine that should be subtitled ‘Impossible Adventures.’” People don’t want to venture off-road in Morocco, he said; they can’t apprentice with a Paris baker; they won’t want to go into Tokyo cafés where only Japanese is spoken. Pauline disagreed: “Many people travel like that; there are adventurers out there who want to go to these less explored places.” Afar offers inspiration, cultural insights, and resources, Pauline said.
We happen to agree with both Frommers; Afar is not for every traveler. It’s for those who are curious about the world and open to what it brings them.
And what about you? Are you an Afar-ish traveler?
Listen to the interview with Susan and the Frommers’ discussion in the first 15 minutes of the second half of their podcast.
Additional comments powered by BackType
I find it distasteful that a travel authority would say “People don’t want to venture off-road in Morocco; they can’t apprentice with a Paris baker; they won’t want to go into Tokyo cafés where only Japanese is spoken.” I find that to be extremely narrow-minded and outdated. It opitomizes why I would never trust the guidance or an Arthur Frommer for any adventure I take. There are lots of travelers who want this kind of adventure; they are not the type that will buy Arthur Frommer’s books.
Tom
24 Aug 09 at 10:24 am
I’m not only an Afar-ish traveler….I’m an Afar-ish human. I’m glad to know that I won’t be traveling in the same circles with someone who thinks this perspective is absurd.
tracy
24 Aug 09 at 10:41 am
Arthur Frommer’s comment only makes Afar magazine even more credible. It goes to show the vast differences in how he perceives travel versus how a “real” traveler thinks. If this magazine doesn’t convince a reader to become an “experiential traveler” then the least it can do is teach the reader what he/she is missing beyond the top 10 attractions.
Myra
24 Aug 09 at 11:17 am
I want to be more of an Afar-ish traveler than I am now. Time, money and knowledge sometimes stand in the way, but the Afar philosophy is the one I would rather follow versus a “right-from-the-guidebook” approach.
JoAnna
24 Aug 09 at 11:42 am
Oh my, this is a big issue.
I became an immediate fan of Afar for the exact reasons Arthur Frommer claims makes the magazine absurd. Because most people don’t seek out unusual and untraditional travel experiences, there’s not a lot of quality media outlets for those that do want a different experience. I’ll admit that the Afar-ish traveler (great term, btw) is in the minority; you could say that Afar thus caters to a niche market, which, as far as I’ve learned, is pretty savvy in these turbulent times.
Moreover, what about the armchair traveler who wants to read about, say, the Berber territory or maid cafes, but will probably never have the chance to experience these places first-hand? It’s not all about whether a reader will actually take a given trip or not; he/she may just want to learn more about unique cultures and places around the world. That person is still buying the magazine, reading the magazine, and being enriched by the content.
For a service-oriented, guidebook market, Afar would indeed be too niche. Perhaps this is what Arthur Frommer meant. But from a cultural and inspirational stand-point, I think Afar is doing a great service, and doing it well. But then again, I am an Afar-ish traveler.
Lauren Quinn
24 Aug 09 at 11:52 am
I may not always be an afarish traveler but I truly enjoy reading about the possiblities out there.
Hulananni
24 Aug 09 at 12:20 pm
I think that these are exactly the kinds of trips that people love to read about. These kind of experiences are what makes travel worthwhile. If it all comes down to staying by the pool at an American chain hotel that just so happens to be located in Morocco or Japan, then, honestly, you might as well have saved the plane fare and stayed in the same chain in Cincinnati.
But as someone who travels to all kinds of places with my child, I may not get to apprentice to a Paris chef – but I may spend a few minutes talking to the man who squeezes me some fresh pomegranate juice in Istanbul. I may not go to a fantasy-play care but I may visit someone’s home and learn more about the culture. And I think Afar’s goal for content can inspire travelers to get out in the world and experience more – even if it’s only a little bit at a time.
Kayt Sukel
24 Aug 09 at 1:17 pm
I listened carefully to the podcast and have to agree with both Pauline and Arthur. I love reading about behind-the-scenes travel and cultural immersion. Like Pauline, I particularly like learning about local cuisine.
But, as Arthur said, most of the travel experiences the writers cover seem to be out of reach for the average traveler. For every high-adventure buff who leaves home with a pup tent, there are several hundred regular people who sign up for tours or strike out on their own – to a hotel.
I think there’s a place for publications like this one, provided they strike a good balance between total individual immersion travel and realistic trip planning for the rest of us. Certainly, most travelers I know really do want to go beyond the five-minute photo stop. They’re interested in authentic travel experiences.
And, as someone who’s toured Italian bakeries and family-run German wineries, I can tell you that, if similar opportunities present themselves to you, rearrange your trip and take advantage of them. You won’t be sorry.
Nancy
24 Aug 09 at 2:14 pm
That Arthur…what a card.
I can only afford to dream about adventure travel, but so what. AFar is a welcome addition on my magazine list, along with great shelter and cooking magazines. I rank it up there with the early issues of Saveur. For what’s it’s worth, Mr. Frommer, some of us like to dream.
Kate G.
24 Aug 09 at 2:26 pm
Interesting conversation. I understand both sides of the argument. There are travelers who aren’t interested in delving beneath a destination’s surface. Others delight in the ability to do so. Afar offers something to both kinds of travelers, information to those who might travel that way plus an armchair read for those who’d rather live vicariously through your pages. As for me, I’ll take travel any way I can get it.
Donna Hull
24 Aug 09 at 2:48 pm
The interview and controversy in the Frommer vs. Frommer podcast was invigorating. Great demonstration of very different approaches to travel one of which, “travel as escape,” has always failed to make sense to me.
Partly that is those of who are members of the disability community we take it for granted that, “All travel is adventure travel when you have disability.”
Partly it is because, representing a culture that is invisible even in our native countries, we live by the core value of “interdependence” that lives the sort of conscious immersion Afar talks about – because it is a day-to-day survival strategy.
I found a revealing quote recently by Neil Marcus:
“Disability is not a brave struggle or ‘courage in the
face of adversity.’ Disability is an art. It’s an ingenious way to live.”
Those of us who “live ingeniously” applaud the existence of a magazine like Afar that teaches others how to do so with a heart for geotourism, adventure, and engagement.
Travel-as-inclusion is the powerful self-transformation practice that our community takes up consciously and promotes as a social-transformation tool to demonstrate that difference as the foundation of dialogue and a sustainble future.
Scott Rains
24 Aug 09 at 4:12 pm
Ha, interesting. Arthur Frommer thinks that venturing off into the adventure of the unexplored is an “absurd” way to travel. I actually don’t know how else to go about doing it. It is the active adventure that is the most memorable, the most rewarding, and most impactful. That’s what my “Runner’s Guide” travel is about, and it looks like that’s what AFAR is about too.
Taylor Lynn Chase
31 Aug 09 at 10:05 pm
Let the travel adventure take one where it may. Isn’t that what makes for exciting exploration?
Richard Austin Healy
11 Sep 09 at 2:31 pm
I was thrilled to read the first issue of “Afar.” My most meaningful travels have been experiential. I feel like a kindred spirit when I read your articles. You are filling a much needed gap in travel magazines.
Thank you,
Sandra
Sandra Kennedy
28 Sep 09 at 4:42 pm
This magazine is what we’ve been waiting for. Experiential travel is what travel is all about – meeting people of other cultures, sharing experiences, understanding the world, developing compassion. How can one say this is absurd?
Carole
13 Oct 09 at 10:25 am
To some extent, they’re both right and I am not just referring to that intellectually lazy tourist who wants to see the Eiffel Tower without having to be exposed to strange, foreign culture and non-American food (frankly, I don’t even know that Americans are the worst in that category). I distinctly remember going into a local cafe in Cairo with little knowledge of Arabic beyond ‘coffee’, ‘please’ and ‘thank you’, being intially quite intimidated (no-one spoke English or otherwise tried to engage me) but eventually settling down to drink my coffee and read my paper in peace like all the other men in the place. I have spent extensive periods of time in other languages than my own, albeit European ones, but I also have a great love for the myriad Irish bars one finds the globe over where one can speak some version of English. Some people will be tour-bus tourists, some more adventurous, and others will want not only to travel but to have experiences that revolve not only around different climes and latitudes and histories but around all the very specific differences from home or familar parts that can only be found by experimenting and exploring and, while it may not be for every traveler, AFAR is a perfect place for the latter.
Michael
17 Nov 09 at 10:04 am
I think people have both sides in themselves. I’m sorry to say that maid cafe isn’t something that adventerous. But I’m more sorry to hear that someone can think that people won’t take the slightest risk to venture out.
For me, stepping out from my comfort zone is the very purpose of traveling.
Yve
20 Apr 10 at 4:01 pm
I’ve always preferred Harvard’s “Let’s Go” guide series (even though I’m 50+) because they cater to a more adventurous, open-minded traveler than more mainstream guides like Frommers. This has me convinced…I will NEVER buy an Arthur Frommer guidebook. BTW, your story illustrates that the best yarns hide in the corners and smart writers must be patient to see them revealed. Seems the most interesting part of your intercame came after you went off the air!
Melissa Adams
21 Jul 10 at 11:54 pm
One of my favorite travel memories was cleaning chickens with a local woman in her home in Banos, Ecuador. I spoke only a spec of Spanish and she no English yet we managed to clean six chickens and then she showed me how to make a delicious chicken dish made with lime. While not every trip I take centers on experiential travel any time I can get a taste of what the real life of a location is like I take it. Experiential travel does not need to be eating some exotic food in a remote place. Another favorite thing I enjoy doing is instead of staying in a hotel, look online for apartment rentals to live like a local! He is crazy! PS Arthur – it is usually cheaper “Budget” than staying in a hotel!
D Bronish
13 Aug 10 at 7:46 pm